Evidence for God from Science

Craig would say middle knowledge. You make the choice, but he knows all possible choices in all possible worlds and he knows which choice you will choose.
narnia4
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Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:44 am

Thanx Narnia, I looked at the links. And to the best of my reasoning I think, there is some problem still. Look if middle knowledge is the answer, then the flaw remains, it merely shifts from macro to micro, it is just a matter of probabilities. And to me this kind of an answer is a random moving goal post. No matter what I do, the goal post is shifted and I am told God already knew that. I really makes no sense from where I stand and see.

For example, someone threatens me at gunpoint

1. God knows what will I do in any circumstance.
2. In my head at the same time, I am thinking about yanking the gun from him and then shoot him.
3. I can't decide whether I should go for it or not.
4. Now God knows, what will happen, if I yank the gun or stay as it is and get shot.
5. If I yank the gun and then move on to shoot him, God already knew that.
6. Now where is my choice? what if I just yank the gun and move away? did God also knew that.
7. If so, then God didn't know what I would do exactly, he only knows I could do it either way:

A. I could yank the gun and shoot him
B. I could yank the gun and walk away.

In a given circumstance, where I have two choices and only one I can carry out, for God to know that particular one, he must know what I will finally choose, God can't know both at the same time to be true, because in my free will, I am the one who finally decides which one is true, and God's knowledge has to be compatible to that. You see, God may know how many choices I have, but that is not enough, he has to know what particular choice would I carry out. This becomes incompatible with "God knows what choice I will make in any circumstance." This bring us back to my original point, if he knew already the final action, it was not mere guess, it has to be true or God's knowledge is not accurate, mere probabilities.

As I said above, for a future event to be true, it has to be true at all times in God's knowledge. And since it is in God's knowledge before I am even born, then it is not me who decided that particular matter and hence I have no say in it. If God knows, I will shoot the guy, then he knows it from immaterial time, outside of it. And since he knows it already, it has to be true, or else he wouldn't know it. It must happen, that is why he knows it will happen. He is not guessing. And if he knows I will do a certain action in a given event then, I really have no choice. I will always get to choose what God had known I will chose.

This way God's knowledge stays firm but it over rides free will. Because no matter what I do, in the end my will has to be the same as God's knowledge. If so then I am not even aware of the choice or should I say, in this case choice is just an illusion. Because out of the above two choices, I will either choose A) or B) I can't choose both since both are in a conflict, You can say God knows the two choices, I am saying that is not enough, he has to know what particular choice I would make. And if he knows it, then it has to be true, it will happen or God's knowledge is faulty.

Did God know always that Charles Manson would do what he did or Ted Bundy would be a serial killer. This is a loaded statement and one which any atheist would be too happy to take and smash around. Because down this road, God becomes the source of evil as well. He allows evil, as a matter of fact, it means evil was already there in God's thoughts before evil was in material form. If God always knew Lucifer would sin and be the first sinner, the fallen, the devil, then he knew it from infinity, before he even created Lucifer. So how does the evil factor came in? The bible says Lucifer became proud, it was his decision. just like Eli the priest, chose his sons above God. it was his choice. But this can only be true when God doesn't see past their choices, unless they act on them (as I am proposing) OR if God already knew that Lucifer would sin, then Lucifer will sin, no matter what happens. Why? because God's omniscience is not probabilities but actual facts. The only reason God knew before hand that Lucifer would sin, is because he will sin. And if that is true then Lucifer has no choice, he may not even be aware of that choice and that makes God unjust. He would have to sin because God knows he will before hand and since God knows it beforehand, it must be true. free will goes out of the window here because the bottom line is, it will happen as God knew.

But by your perspective another side problem arises, If God already knew my action, then I cannot change them, since it will be in conflict with God's knowledge and therefore that cannot happen. I didn't decide what I will do, since God already knows what I will do. This way I can say, "hey, what wrong did I do, I just did as it was in your thoughts and since your thoughts would be true always, I can't change what you thought before hand" so I am not the culprit here. I had no will of mine this way. Okay, so is God the culprit? certainly not, he knew what I will do, but he didn't make that choice for me, he can not, it conflicts with his nature and his free will gift to us. My question is, then who made that choice before I was even born? I will let you guys decide how to answer this.

Back to my point, Lets take another example, take Paul the apostle

Paul writes in Gal 1:15
"But when God,

who set me apart from birth

and called me by his grace, was pleased-"

Look here, Paul affirms that he was chosen before hand, this means he was predestined to be the apostle Paul to the gentiles. Now, on the road to Damascus, may I ask, did Paul had a choice in rejecting God? Free will stipulates that he can very well reject God's plan, regardless of the fact that God chose him before birth. You can say that God always knew Paul would convert on the way to Damascus, sure but he can not confirm this, unless Paul chooses to do so. Up till then it is just a good guess. Because if God can confirm that Paul will change, then by definition, it would have to be true, before it ever happened. And thus Paul will change no matter what happens. And then again, where does that leave free will? Paul can not refuse. Had he refused, wouldn't that cancel out God's foreknowledge that he will be the apostle to the Gentiles. And look we are not talking about God guessing, if God knew before hand (as your view says) then he will always be the apostle. That kicks free will out, fellas, admit it or not. You can't have it both ways, God's foreknowledge can not be in error, can it?. And as you say it must not affect free will either, but the kicker is, if Paul chooses to refuse (as free will stipulates) then God's foreknowledge is in error. Because in this case, you would say, God always knew Paul would refuse, that again kicks out free will.

The only way this makes sense to me, is that God does not see past our choice unless we make them, except prophecy. This is the only way he can reward each according to their work, out of their own choice. That is the only way his will and ours coincide and co-exist, without overruling each other. I am not saying he can't see the future, he can but if he does, it will cancel out the free will stipulation, because WHAT HE KNOWS BEFORE HAND HAS TO BE TRUE AT ALL TIMES.

I must say the more i think about your perspective it seems just as rational as mine and either could be true... maybe...maybe not haha

I love a healthy discussion, I have posted more so we can communicate on this It is a good way, we brothers and sisters can share and ponder and learn from each other.

narnia4 wrote:For your consideration- Molinism, I know William Lane Craig is pretty popular around here and he's one of the most ardent defenders of Molinism.

Some links explaining the basics of Molinism, some opinion in both (I'll abstain from giving my opinion at the moment). I'm not an expert in this but I think they attribute some things to Molinists that I don't think WLC would agree with-

http://www.gotquestions.org/molinism.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism

Craig also regularly defends Molinism on his website. I haven't made up my mind on all this stuff yet, but I think its important to affirm predestination, free will, and omniscience... how that all fits together, boy. It makes for an interesting discussion.

neo-x wrote:Dan, I can't convince you if you do not see it from my side. The point is, if God knows something will happen, the only reason it is that way, because it will happen. How else do you explain it?

Craig would say middle knowledge. You make the choice, but he knows all possible choices in all possible worlds and he knows which choice you will choose.

FYI, WLC does not defend Monism is any way, shape, or form. Monism is a 1 circle view. WLC does believe in the traditionally Christian dualism view. Its the Creator and Creation distinction.

Monism has many forms. Primarily Eastern philosophy (Hindu, Buddhism, Taoism, etc), Spinoza, New spirituality (Also known as New age & Occult), Pegan, Greek philosophers, and some other obscure Orthodoxy systems.

Btw, I sort of spurred this topic off in the other thread. I'll be glad to put my 2 cents in again in simple terms.

God knows everything that EVERYTHING that CAN BE known. Which is everything. This does not undermine his Omniscience. Prophecies from God are not omniscience acts. Those would be considered his omnipotence acts since we know God fulfills his promises regardless of the resistance of mankind. Hence, Jesus telling Peter "Get behind me, Satan".

I know some here probably don't agree with me. I think you guys make omniscience stretch out far more then is needed. God is not a Psychic. In fact, I consider that an insult to God. Thats why I said rather humorously that Jesus does not drive a Delorean.

I think whats rather interesting though is that Rick was stating that God is eternal and his observation and intervention of our space and time. I don't disagree, and I think it makes a good point. Creating space and time and acting upon it is an omnipotent act however. I don't see how it would be omniscience. If there is another world in which all our actions have already been done. That would mean this world is a paradox or that there are many worlds and time is just a series of states. This however, I would have to reject. This world view would be affirming with Buddhism philosophy and would be supportive of Atheist claims of the origins of the universe (Multiverse, Many worlds)

You guys need to be very careful of these kind of claims. Throwing these ideas out when its impossible for you to observe it is very dangerous to our Christianity and our ability to witness. There is a material finite world and there is NO illusion where we are in time and the life of spiritual glorification in eternity with our Creator.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... ll+Jac3510
I would strongly encourage you guys to peruse this thread from a couple of years ago. Especially since the title is exactly the same except inverted. (Omniscience and Free Will) Neo, Jac had a pretty good grip on this subject. I would recommend his post in dealing with your question,

The point is, if God knows something will happen, the only reason it is that way, because it will happen. How else do you explain it?

Here is a quote from Jac on page two,

Then this is the root of our problem. If I understood you correctly, you asked why God should let the entirety of time play out if He knows what we would have done. I answered that if He did not, then what we might have done never would have happened. There is a difference in what we did and what we would have done. Second of all, notice that I didn't ask for the difference between what we did and what we MIGHT HAVE done. I asked for the difference in what we DID and what we WOULD HAVE done.

If God cuts off the world and judges us based on what we WOULD HAVE DONE (had He not ended the world), then He is not judging us based on something that we actually did. That would be unjust. It doesn't matter if we were guaranteed to do it or not. What matters is that we DID NOT DO IT. You can't judge someone for something that they didn't do. And that answers your basic question.

What would happen is NOT the same as what DID happen.

jlay wrote:What would happen is NOT the same as what DID happen.

This is unbiblical. If you lust, you have already sinned in your heart. It didn't NEED to happen. It ALREADY did. Our thoughts will be judged as well as our actions.

I'm very hesitant to even get into this discussion, because of posts like this:

You guys need to be very careful of these kind of claims. Throwing these ideas out when its impossible for you to observe it is very dangerous to our Christianity and our ability to witness. There is a material finite world and there is NO illusion where we are in time and the life of spiritual glorification in eternity with our Creator.

Dom, we are trying to have a discussion about a topic that in itself, at least in my case, has no relevance in my ability to witness, or lead a Christian life. God's omniscience is a topic that I have never spoken about with anyone outside this board. It is an opinion that I have, that is an opinion on something that is a non-essential to my faith. It is such a minor topic in my mind, that I can't remember ever even speaking about it before. So, if we can step back, and discuss this topic rationally, without unneeded emotions, and accusations, then we'll continue. If not, then this thread will get locked.

This is unbiblical. If you lust, you have already sinned in your heart. It didn't NEED to happen. It ALREADY did. Our thoughts will be judged as well as our actions.

Not unbiblical at all.
Lusting is an action of thought. The thought HAPPENED.
Saying our thoughts are equal to our actions, still REQUIRES the thought to have happened. Otherwise God would be judging for thoughts that never took place in reality. That is the point of the statement. If God judged us for thoughts that He only foreknew we would have, He would not be judging righteously. The forknowledge of the thought, and the reality of the thought are different. And Jac covers this with good examples. Check it out.

If the moral authority (Jesus) says that lust is commiting adultery in one's heart, that doesn't change the claim of, "what would happen is not the same as what did happen." It only points out that lust is sin that will be equally judged. Because lust and adultery are judged equally does not mean they are the same. Otherwise the person lusted after is guilty of fonrnication. Would you say that? Heavens no.

So, your statement fails to demonstrate this is unbiblical. My explanation is consistent that our thoughts WILL be judged as well as our actions. I would suggest reading the thread to understand the context from which this statement was taken before you make assumptions about what I am saying.

jlay wrote:http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... ll+Jac3510
I would strongly encourage you guys to peruse this thread from a couple of years ago. Especially since the title is exactly the same except inverted. (Omniscience and Free Will) Neo, Jac had a pretty good grip on this subject. I would recommend his post in dealing with your question,

The point is, if God knows something will happen, the only reason it is that way, because it will happen. How else do you explain it?

Here is a quote from Jac on page two,

Then this is the root of our problem. If I understood you correctly, you asked why God should let the entirety of time play out if He knows what we would have done. I answered that if He did not, then what we might have done never would have happened. There is a difference in what we did and what we would have done. Second of all, notice that I didn't ask for the difference between what we did and what we MIGHT HAVE done. I asked for the difference in what we DID and what we WOULD HAVE done.

If God cuts off the world and judges us based on what we WOULD HAVE DONE (had He not ended the world), then He is not judging us based on something that we actually did. That would be unjust. It doesn't matter if we were guaranteed to do it or not. What matters is that we DID NOT DO IT. You can't judge someone for something that they didn't do. And that answers your basic question.

What would happen is NOT the same as what DID happen.

Great recall of Brother Jac, J!

RickD wrote:I'm very hesitant to even get into this discussion, because of posts like this:

You guys need to be very careful of these kind of claims. Throwing these ideas out when its impossible for you to observe it is very dangerous to our Christianity and our ability to witness. There is a material finite world and there is NO illusion where we are in time and the life of spiritual glorification in eternity with our Creator.

Dom, we are trying to have a discussion about a topic that in itself, at least in my case, has no relevance in my ability to witness, or lead a Christian life. God's omniscience is a topic that I have never spoken about with anyone outside this board. It is an opinion that I have, that is an opinion on something that is a non-essential to my faith. It is such a minor topic in my mind, that I can't remember ever even speaking about it before. So, if we can step back, and discuss this topic rationally, without unneeded emotions, and accusations, then we'll continue. If not, then this thread will get locked.

My boy Rick doesn't mess about

For example, someone threatens me at gunpoint

1. God knows what will I do in any circumstance.
2. In my head at the same time, I am thinking about yanking the gun from him and then shoot him.
3. I can't decide whether I should go for it or not.
4. Now God knows, what will happen, if I yank the gun or stay as it is and get shot.
5. If I yank the gun and then move on to shoot him, God already knew that.
6. Now where is my choice? what if I just yank the gun and move away? did God also knew that.
7. If so, then God didn't know what I would do exactly, he only knows I could do it either way:

A. I could yank the gun and shoot him
B. I could yank the gun and walk away.

Neo, I believe you're thinking way too much into this. You're making it way more complicated than it has to be.

In a given circumstance, where I have two choices and only one I can carry out, for God to know that particular one, he must know what I will finally choose, God can't know both at the same time to be true, because in my free will, I am the one who finally decides which one is true, and God's knowledge has to be compatible to that. You see, God may know how many choices I have, but that is not enough, he has to know what particular choice would I carry out. This becomes incompatible with "God knows what choice I will make in any circumstance." This bring us back to my original point, if he knew already the final action, it was not mere guess, it has to be true or God's knowledge is not accurate, mere probabilities.

Thinking way to much into this. It's much simpler than that.

As I said above, for a future event to be true, it has to be true at all times in God's knowledge.

There is no "all times" in God's knowledge. God is outside of time. So, that logic is flawed from the outset.

And since it is in God's knowledge before I am even born, then it is not me who decided that particular matter and hence I have no say in it. If God knows, I will shoot the guy, then he knows it from immaterial time, outside of it. And since he knows it already, it has to be true, or else he wouldn't know it. It must happen, that is why he knows it will happen. He is not guessing. And if he knows I will do a certain action in a given event then, I really have no choice. I will always get to choose what God had known I will chose.

Thinking way too much into it.

Did God know always that Charles Manson would do what he did or Ted Bundy would be a serial killer. This is a loaded statement and one which any atheist would be too happy to take and smash around. Because down this road, God becomes the source of evil as well.

Again, just because someone knows something will happen, doesn't mean He made it happen.

OR if God already knew that Lucifer would sin, then Lucifer will sin, no matter what happens.

There is no " no matter what happens". Lucifer did rebel against God.

The only reason God knew before hand that Lucifer would sin, is because he will sin.

The reason why God knew beforehand, is because God is omniscient.

But by your perspective another side problem arises, If God already knew my action, then I cannot change them, since it will be in conflict with God's knowledge and therefore that cannot happen.

You could change your actions. But, God would also know you would do that. No conflict there.

This way I can say, "hey, what wrong did I do, I just did as it was in your thoughts and since your thoughts would be true always, I can't change what you thought before hand" so I am not the culprit here. I had no will of mine this way. Okay, so is God the culprit? certainly not, he knew what I will do, but he didn't make that choice for me, he can not, it conflicts with his nature and his free will gift to us.

Thinking way too much into it.

My question is, then who made that choice before I was even born? I will let you guys decide how to answer this.

Nobody made your choices before you were born, because you weren't born, yet. Again, just because God knows your whole life, that doesn't mean He makes you do anything.

WHAT HE KNOWS BEFORE HAND HAS TO BE TRUE AT ALL TIMES.

I refuted this above, near the beginning of this post. So, now that the statement you made, for the basis of your argument is flawed, can't you see your argument is flawed?

As I said above, for a future event to be true, it has to be true at all times in God's knowledge.

There is no "all times" in God's knowledge. God is outside of time. So, that logic is flawed from the outset.

The problem with Free will and Omniscience is that there isn't any. Only human beings make a problem out of it due to black and white thinking.

If God never called out to Adam and Eve after the fall, abandon them, could human beings save themselves?

If the Word, John 1:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 14c, did not come, could human beings choose salvation?

Does the calling forth that symbolic means of salvation “Where are you” belong to God alone or man who hides?

What does this call create?

Who Created it?

The initiative of calling to all people is God’s own. By it choice is created within human beings.

Does God foreknow the results that his own call will have? Yes, but he still calls nevertheless to all for if he did not, then, how could God truly be absolutely just in all His ways?
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jlay wrote:

This is unbiblical. If you lust, you have already sinned in your heart. It didn't NEED to happen. It ALREADY did. Our thoughts will be judged as well as our actions.

Not unbiblical at all.
Lusting is an action of thought. The thought HAPPENED.
Saying our thoughts are equal to our actions, still REQUIRES the thought to have happened. Otherwise God would be judging for thoughts that never took place in reality. That is the point of the statement. If God judged us for thoughts that He only foreknew we would have, He would not be judging righteously. The forknowledge of the thought, and the reality of the thought are different. And Jac covers this with good examples. Check it out.

If the moral authority (Jesus) says that lust is commiting adultery in one's heart, that doesn't change the claim of, "what would happen is not the same as what did happen." It only points out that lust is sin that will be equally judged. Because lust and adultery are judged equally does not mean they are the same. Otherwise the person lusted after is guilty of fonrnication. Would you say that? Heavens no.

So, your statement fails to demonstrate this is unbiblical. My explanation is consistent that our thoughts WILL be judged as well as our actions. I would suggest reading the thread to understand the context from which this statement was taken before you make assumptions about what I am saying.

Rick, I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I'm sorry if you sounds very heated in my words. I talk about God very passionately. Please everyone understand that I'm not trying to degrade anyone or tell them their wrong. I agree that Omniscience is basically non-essential, but wouldn't you all agree that the non-essentials is what the non-believers are going to scrutinize? I firmly believe we as Christians need to interpet God and represent him properly. Otherwise, we could be doing damage instead of saving. The very fact that we could be doing damage bothers me. It doesn't bother some of you, I understand. Just trying to see if you guys get my view.

jlay, I like what you said there. Thats its judged equally, but not the same.

Perhaps we should be harping on what is possible and what is not possible in any given sinful situation in regards to contemplation.

The point I think I'm trying to convey is that if it cannot be contemplated, then it is not possible to enter the mind. No sin committed. You realize where this narrows the scope, right?

Either our sin has to be an honest accident and hopefully we recognized it OR the sin happened in our mind OR the sin happened in our mind and we acted it out.

Why don't we all try focusing on this?

B.W. I love your thinking, man. Its engaging.

B. W. wrote:The problem with Free will and Omniscience is that there isn't any. Only human beings make a problem out of it due to black and white thinking.

Heres the problem I think with what you just said. You're saying that Free will and Omniscience is an illusion AND that we were not made in the image of God. God made us in his image and likeness. This includes THINKING and having a mind of our own just like him. We can think, see the world and see the greatness of God, but yet what we experience in terms that I decide to go here or go there. Eat this or eat that. If it is indeed an illusion then you can calling God a deceiver within his creation. I disagree with your assertion that human beings are black and white thinkers.

The mind is amazingly simple yet powerful. We have one LIKE our creator. The mind is simpler then the universe. The difference between us and our creator is that he is THE supreme being. He CREATED time and space. We can understand it, we just can't do what he does.

B. W. wrote:If God never called out to Adam and Eve after the fall, abandon them, could human beings save themselves?

Of course not.

B. W. wrote:If the Word, John 1:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 14c, did not come, could human beings choose salvation?

Of course not BUT could God exercise his omnipotence to provide salvation?

B. W. wrote:Does the calling forth that symbolic means of salvation “Where are you” belong to God alone or man who hides?

He called them because God recognized that they were separated. God didn't need to ask. He felt it!

B. W. wrote:What does this call create?

Nothing. Separation happened. He was communicating it. They knew what they just did, but didn't know much more then that. God certainly needed to explain what happened. He loved them.

B. W. wrote:Who Created it?

The initiative of calling to all people is God’s own. By it choice is created within human beings.

Nothing was created in this instance. God needed to exercise his omnipotence out of love for his creation.

B. W. wrote:Does God foreknow the results that his own call will have? Yes, but he still calls nevertheless to all for if he did not, then, how could God truly be absolutely just in all His ways?
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This one flew over my head. God is Just because he loves us and wants us to be with him again. This would require that he exercise his omnipotence.

domokunrox wrote:

narnia4 wrote:For your consideration- Molinism, I know William Lane Craig is pretty popular around here and he's one of the most ardent defenders of Molinism.

Some links explaining the basics of Molinism, some opinion in both (I'll abstain from giving my opinion at the moment). I'm not an expert in this but I think they attribute some things to Molinists that I don't think WLC would agree with-

http://www.gotquestions.org/molinism.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism

Craig also regularly defends Molinism on his website. I haven't made up my mind on all this stuff yet, but I think its important to affirm predestination, free will, and omniscience... how that all fits together, boy. It makes for an interesting discussion.

neo-x wrote:Dan, I can't convince you if you do not see it from my side. The point is, if God knows something will happen, the only reason it is that way, because it will happen. How else do you explain it?

Craig would say middle knowledge. You make the choice, but he knows all possible choices in all possible worlds and he knows which choice you will choose.

FYI, WLC does not defend Monism is any way, shape, or form. Monism is a 1 circle view. WLC does believe in the traditionally Christian dualism view. Its the Creator and Creation distinction.

Not monism, Molinism. Big difference.

It should be pointed out that I usually see it used to try to address the "problem of evil", to say that God knows under exactly what circumstances people will accept Christ and so creates the best possible world while maintaining free will.

@ neo-x

I'm not necessarily good at diagnosing this but what you're defending reminds me of open theism. At least a couple of the points are pretty similar. Again, there's some opinion stuff in each of these and not just the facts of the claims of open theism. Myself, I don't hold to open theism at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism#Criticism
http://www.gotquestions.org/open-theism.html
http://www.theopedia.com/Open_theism


A couple of thoughts (again just trying to make discussion points)-

Daniel does have a point about God being outside of time.

Sometimes even us humans can be almost certain about what a person is going to do, a person close to us perhaps. A kid may know that he will be sent to his room if he doesn't take out the trash, but that doesn't mean that the kid sent himself to his room. Not a good illustration really (don't really like God in the role of the kid), but you see the point.

Are we sure that we have the definition of free will down? That might help the discussion. I don't think strict determinism fits in here, but I'm not so sure that libertarian free will is the answer either. Our genes, our environment, what we're taught as children, that all helps to make us who we are. We still have the ability to pick one path or another, but will we?

I think I agree with RickD, I'm not sure that this has to be that complicated. There's a balance there that's hard to understand, but then lack of understanding should be expected when you aren't God. Of course we can try.

Feel like I have more but my mind is pretty muddled, if the discussion continues then maybe I can try to give my actual opinion on how this works...

Oh, you're right, Narnia. Sorry about that. I've been studying it for the past 2 months extensively and so its all starting to look the same to me now.

I think WLC's arguments on the problem of evil is really well thought out. I'm not sure what I think about it, either. I think its really engaging, and the best Christian thinkers are the that have been thinking recently. Do you have any of his books?