Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine ****

[DannyM]

Danny, the" non open absolute free will " quote, was from jlay's posted thread. Not from Geisler. It just looked like what was closest to what I believe Geisler believes. Closest, but not exact.

Non-open absolute free will
This refers to the idea that God can foreknow exactly what choices man will make, and thus man’s choices are admittedly inevitable rather than “open,” yet man’s choices are still absolutely free in the sense that God can only foreknow them and influence them, but not ultimately determine them.

Rick, would you agree that to foreknow implies certainty?

[RickD]

Danny, the" non open absolute free will " quote, was from jlay's posted thread. Not from Geisler. It just looked like what was closest to what I believe Geisler believes. Closest, but not exact.

Non-open absolute free will
This refers to the idea that God can foreknow exactly what choices man will make, and thus man’s choices are admittedly inevitable rather than “open,” yet man’s choices are still absolutely free in the sense that God can only foreknow them and influence them, but not ultimately determine them.

Rick, would you agree that to foreknow implies certainty?

I think so, Danny. I guess I would have to have specifics, in order to give a specific answer, though.

[DannyM]

Danny, the" non open absolute free will " quote, was from jlay's posted thread. Not from Geisler. It just looked like what was closest to what I believe Geisler believes. Closest, but not exact.

Non-open absolute free will
This refers to the idea that God can foreknow exactly what choices man will make, and thus man’s choices are admittedly inevitable rather than “open,” yet man’s choices are still absolutely free in the sense that God can only foreknow them and influence them, but not ultimately determine them.

Rick, would you agree that to foreknow implies certainty?

I think so, Danny. I guess I would have to have specifics, in order to give a specific answer, though.

Rick, I think this idea of free will refutes itself. We both agree that God has infallible knowledge of the future. That which is foreknown by God is known for certain. What is certainly known must be certain. Thus it is fixed, and is no less determined than the position it wants to object to. And if not determined by God, then what/who?

[RickD]

Rick, I think this idea of free will refutes itself. We both agree that God has infallible knowledge of the future. That which is foreknown by God is known for certain. What is certainly known must be certain. Thus it is fixed, and is no less determined than the position it wants to object to. And if not determined by God, then what/who?

Sorry, Danny. You lost me. I don't understand this.

[DannyM]

Rick, I think this idea of free will refutes itself. We both agree that God has infallible knowledge of the future. That which is foreknown by God is known for certain. What is certainly known must be certain. Thus it is fixed, and is no less determined than the position it wants to object to. And if not determined by God, then what/who?

Sorry, Danny. You lost me. I don't understand this.

Rick, in short, if it is foreknown by God, then it is certain. If it is certain, then it is fixed. If God foreknows that you will come to Christ, then it is absolutely certain that you will come to Christ. Your destiny is determined. But by what?

[RickD]

Rick, in short, if it is foreknown by God, then it is certain. If it is certain, then it is fixed. If God foreknows that you will come to Christ, then it is absolutely certain that you will come to Christ. Your destiny is determined. But by what?

Ok, I get it now, Danny. You've pretty well described predestination, as I believe the bible does.
My best answer would be "My destiny, in this case, is determined by my choice to accept the gift of salvation, that God has offered me."

[DannyM]

Rick, in short, if it is foreknown by God, then it is certain. If it is certain, then it is fixed. If God foreknows that you will come to Christ, then it is absolutely certain that you will come to Christ. Your destiny is determined. But by what?

Ok, I get it now, Danny. You've pretty well described predestination, as I believe the bible does.
My best answer would be "My destiny, in this case, is determined by my choice to accept the gift of salvation, that God has offered me."

LOL. Rick, I've described what I believe to be the logical conclusions of the so-called non-open absolute free will. And yes, you're right, it leads right back to the sovereign will of God.

[RickD]

Rick, in short, if it is foreknown by God, then it is certain. If it is certain, then it is fixed. If God foreknows that you will come to Christ, then it is absolutely certain that you will come to Christ. Your destiny is determined. But by what?

Ok, I get it now, Danny. You've pretty well described predestination, as I believe the bible does.
My best answer would be "My destiny, in this case, is determined by my choice to accept the gift of salvation, that God has offered me."

LOL. Rick, I've described what I believe to be the logical conclusions of the so-called non-open absolute free will. And yes, you're right, it leads right back to the sovereign will of God.

Do you agree with it, or disagree?

[DannyM]

Rick, in short, if it is foreknown by God, then it is certain. If it is certain, then it is fixed. If God foreknows that you will come to Christ, then it is absolutely certain that you will come to Christ. Your destiny is determined. But by what?

Ok, I get it now, Danny. You've pretty well described predestination, as I believe the bible does.
My best answer would be "My destiny, in this case, is determined by my choice to accept the gift of salvation, that God has offered me."

LOL. Rick, I've described what I believe to be the logical conclusions of the so-called non-open absolute free will. And yes, you're right, it leads right back to the sovereign will of God.

Do you agree with it, or disagree?

Couldn't tell you for certain, Rick. But nothing else is leaping out of the page at me.

[domokunrox]

Danny, allow me to first answer your question. You should believe that I am VERY passionate about God' word and showing everyone the truth and proper doctrine in it. I absolutely hate bible distortion and I do go after these people. Again, as an apologetic it is I who has to deal with the smearing and defense of Christianity with people of other faith or atheists who would otherwise find the Christian doctrines to be truthful and not distortions. In otherwords, if you are propagating false doctrines, you should expect other people to come in and show you. Be open to it.

Rick, I didn't expect you to have an unchanged position. Danny here is having a dialogue with you on if free will really exists, and its influencing you. Here's the problem. Danny is wrong. Let me get back to Danny.

Danny, how do you feel about Norman's description of Devine rape? If there is no free will, then we are receiving Devine rape or if you were not part of the predestined elect, you're a victim of Devine negligence. How do you respond or defend this position to a non believer? What would he the point of missionary work at all? How would that work out?

Hi, I am here to tell you that God either picked you and wants to rape you or he didn't and doesn't care. Has God chosen you? Did Jesus die for you? Here's my number, call me when you find out.

I would like to know your response.

I await to hear B.W. opinion as well as jlay when you guys get the chance to listen to Norman.

Btw, Danny. I have a hunch you didn't listen to the presentation or part if it.

[August]

I own and have studied the full set of Geisler's Systematic Theology, because it does have some value from an apologetics point of view. However, he is either obtuse or biased when it comes to understanding the reformed faith, as he consistently misrepresents or misquotes when it comes to that. His big work on that is "Chosen But Free", which I also read, and it is an unexpected failure, given his solid scholarship in classical apologetics. Even though Geisler refers to himself as a zero-point Calvinist, his understanding of the reformed faith is limited, or he chooses to misrepresent the reformed faith, as he does in the video linked above.

Dom, which philosophers have you studied to lead you to your conclusions? You poison the well with deliberate emotional attacks such as the divine rape argument (whether it is a quote from Geisler or not). If you know anything about the reformed faith then you will know that it states that we are all recipients of, and deserving of, God's wrath, and that it is only by His grace and choice that some of us are saved.

We do missionary work because 1. God commands us to, and 2. because we do not know who God's elect is. That applies regardless of which theological position you hold.

Phrasing God's judgement and wrath as rape, or some other emotionally charged word is a debate technique that is below the dignity of how we should discuss matters as fellow Christians.

[RickD]

Rick, I didn't expect you to have an unchanged position. Danny here is having a dialogue with you on if free will really exists, and its influencing you. Here's the problem. Danny is wrong. Let me get back to Danny.

Dom, any time I have a dialogue with anyone, including Danny, I would hope what he is saying, influences me. Otherwise, I'm not really listening to what the other person is saying. If I'm truly listening to a differing view, it will always have an influence on me. I'm not sure what, specifically, Danny is wrong about, in your eyes.

[Byblos]

Phrasing God's judgement and wrath as rape, or some other emotionally charged word is a debate technique that is below the dignity of how we should discuss matters as fellow Christians.

And that is precisely why I edited the title; couldn't care less who came up with it and why.

[DannyM]

Danny, allow me to first answer your question. You should believe that I am VERY passionate about God' word and showing everyone the truth and proper doctrine in it. I absolutely hate bible distortion and I do go after these people. Again, as an apologetic it is I who has to deal with the smearing and defense of Christianity with people of other faith or atheists who would otherwise find the Christian doctrines to be truthful and not distortions. In otherwords, if you are propagating false doctrines, you should expect other people to come in and show you. Be open to it.

This all just assumes your own correctness, Dom. Sorry but you need to do better than that. I once was where you are, ignorant and flailing in the dark. You’re welcome to come at me, but you had better do it with the Bible and not with this empty rhetoric.

Rick, I didn't expect you to have an unchanged position. Danny here is having a dialogue with you on if free will really exists, and its influencing you. Here's the problem. Danny is wrong. Let me get back to Danny.

Hey Rick! I’m influencing you, man. Dom, do you have an argument, my Brother?

Danny, how do you feel about Norman's description of Devine rape? If there is no free will, then we are receiving Devine rape or if you were not part of the predestined elect, you're a victim of Devine negligence. How do you respond or defend this position to a non believer? What would he the point of missionary work at all? How would that work out?

Hi, I am here to tell you that God either picked you and wants to rape you or he didn't and doesn't care. Has God chosen you? Did Jesus die for you? Here's my number, call me when you find out.

It’s a complete misrepresentation and solely Norman’s own creation. I guess you ought ask him yourself for his motives here. It is a plain fact that we are not free from our desires. God indeed allows us to act freely on our desires. How Norman gets to his own little scenario is neither here nor there in this debate. So, that’s what I think of that little paragraph.

I await to hear B.W. opinion as well as jlay when you guys get the chance to listen to Norman. Btw, Danny. I have a hunch you didn't listen to the presentation or part if it.

You are correct, haven’t had time. But you keep presenting the key points you want to and we can give it a bash.

[Echoside]

Phrasing God's judgement and wrath as rape, or some other emotionally charged word is a debate technique that is below the dignity of how we should discuss matters as fellow Christians.

Emotionally charged words aside I don't think I've ever heard a satisying answer to this question.