Evidence for God from Science

Gman wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Malarkey?
And yes, I had to look that up, LOL !
Dude, the government of Israel may represent the interest of SOME of the Israeli people of course, but what the government does is as self-serving as any other government.
We support of Israeli brothers 100%, that is NOT the same as supporting their government if they do something wrong, just as one supports our American brothers ( I am Canadian) even if we disagree with American policy.

And what is so wrong with supporting the Israeli government? Do you promote democracy or Sharia Law?

PaulSacramento wrote:God made NO covenant with the government of Israel, He made it with Israel the nation and peoples decendant from Abraham.
As my Jewish Rabbi likes to say: I am Israeli and will be Israeli regardless of what my government says and does in "my name", that doesn't mean I have to support them when they are wrong.

Ok.. So you are saying then that we shouldn't support the Israeli government... Fine. Then what government should we be supporting there in Israel? Also what is God doing with Israel then?

PaulSacramento wrote:By the way, if the UN didn't recognise Israel, would there be no Israel?
Of course not, Israel, like the aforementioned Rabbi likes to put it, is far more than a place on the Map, it's a Hope and a Dream.

It's more than just a hope and a dream.. It's a reality...

You seem to be making this an "either you are with us 100%or against us" and that just isn't the case.
We support the government of course, as we support any government that is elected by the people and we also condone when it does something wrong,just as we cheer when it does something right.
Just because it is the government of Israel doesn't make it above that, far from that.
Jesus was VERY critical of the ruling "government" of His time and rightly so.
You seem to be suggesting that we support what the Israeli government does, even if we disagree, just because it is Israel, is that it?

PaulSacramento wrote: You seem to be making this an "either you are with us 100%or against us" and that just isn't the case.
We support the government of course, as we support any government that is elected by the people and we also condone when it does something wrong,just as we cheer when it does something right.
Just because it is the government of Israel doesn't make it above that, far from that.
Jesus was VERY critical of the ruling "government" of His time and rightly so.
You seem to be suggesting that we support what the Israeli government does, even if we disagree, just because it is Israel, is that it?

I see you couldn't answer my questions.. There is WAY more positive things that Israel does than negative.. Way more... The fact that the wacky media only focuses on the "questionable" ones and then tries to blow things completely out of proportion just goes to show you how anti-Semitic they really are. Israel has done great things there in the Middle East. They provide much needed jobs, voting rights for ALL people regardless of religion. They have turned that wasteland into a beautiful land for ALL people.

If you want the best for both Arab AND Jew, then vote for Israel. You are actually in turn voting for democracy..

Gman wrote:So? It doesn't negate the fact that some are still Jews.. And not everyone who say's that they are Christian are Christian either...

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

This is key. Regardless of who’s who, we are to support Israel. Ultimately this is a no-brainer.

Romans 11:16-18
16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,

18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Lest we forget we are the wild olive shoot. God has Israel in His sights, so she is in safe hands, but, while we can offer friendly criticism when we think it’s necessary, we are not to presume to criticise her too harshly when that is solely God's territory.

DannyM wrote: This is key. Regardless of who’s who, we are to support Israel. Ultimately this is a no-brainer.

Agreed.. I have the hardest times convincing the Americans about this.. I have no clue why. Maybe it's education.

Lest we forget we are the wild olive shoot. God has Israel in His sights, so she is in safe hands, but, while we can offer friendly criticism when we think it’s necessary, we are not to presume to criticise her too harshly when that is solely God's territory.

Amen Danny..

Here are some great teachings on the subject..

http://www.c4israel.org/c4i/teachings/articles

Gman on Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:14 am

neo-x wrote:
Gman,
but not everyone who is born Jew is Jew according to Romans 2:28-29. I mean, God has Israel and he will full fill his prophetic word. But just because someone is born of a Jew, doesn't gets a free pass.


So? It doesn't negate the fact that some are still Jews.. And not everyone who say's that they are Christian are Christian either...

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Ofcourse Gman, that is a given. But then we have to define Israel. what is it? the Jews living in the area, the government? the ones who follow the law, who exactly are we talking about here? I am all up for supporting it, but what do you mean when you say Israel?

Jews are God's chosen people, I agree but then so is everyone who comes to Christ, we are all the same.

Rom 3:9

Well then, should we conclude that we Jews are better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin.

In God's eyes, the Jew is no greater then a common sinner who comes to Christ and is saved. Paul made this quite clear in Romans. They will be branched back, since they are the real olive shoot and we are the wild ones, but then that makes us all the same, in Christ, not one greater than the other, either way. I do not think that the church replaces Israel. God has a promise to those people and he will make it happen. But I don't think it makes them any more special than you and me. In Christ, race and nationality means nothing. I would say that God favours the righteous, that be Jew or gentile, alike. It doesn't matter who is who, and that only happens when we come to God through Christ, all, regardless of nationality.

hmm..what if the palestinians are the real jews?

hmm..what if the palestinians are the real jews?

Too many problems with that, i'm afraid. This won't even lift off the ground

Gman wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote: You seem to be making this an "either you are with us 100%or against us" and that just isn't the case.
We support the government of course, as we support any government that is elected by the people and we also condone when it does something wrong,just as we cheer when it does something right.
Just because it is the government of Israel doesn't make it above that, far from that.
Jesus was VERY critical of the ruling "government" of His time and rightly so.
You seem to be suggesting that we support what the Israeli government does, even if we disagree, just because it is Israel, is that it?

I see you couldn't answer my questions.. There is WAY more positive things that Israel does than negative.. Way more... The fact that the wacky media only focuses on the "questionable" ones and then tries to blow things completely out of proportion just goes to show you how anti-Semitic they really are. Israel has done great things there in the Middle East. They provide much needed jobs, voting rights for ALL people regardless of religion. They have turned that wasteland into a beautiful land for ALL people.

If you want the best for both Arab AND Jew, then vote for Israel. You are actually in turn voting for democracy..

I thought your questions rhetorical, sorry.
But I see hat you didn't answer mien as well
Look, just to be clear, I support Israel, but that does NOT equal supporting their government when they screw up big time, like when their military killed Canadian soldiers during the "Lebanon situation", or when their government has a chance for peace and they compromise it, or when one of their own kills their own prime minister.
I've been to Israel and I have quite a few jewish friends and I know that even for THEM, Israel is far more than the geographical Israel and it is NOT the government.
Just saying.
You of course can feel free to disagree and I respect your view 100%, as always.

PaulSacramento wrote:[Look, just to be clear, I support Israel, but that does NOT equal supporting their government when they screw up big time, like when their military killed Canadian soldiers during the "Lebanon situation", or when their government has a chance for peace and they compromise it, or when one of their own kills their own prime minister.

Paul, no-one's expecting you to do handstands when you think Israel makes a boo boo. But to withdraw your support of Israel, when she falters? Bit extreme, isn't it?

DannyM wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:[Look, just to be clear, I support Israel, but that does NOT equal supporting their government when they screw up big time, like when their military killed Canadian soldiers during the "Lebanon situation", or when their government has a chance for peace and they compromise it, or when one of their own kills their own prime minister.

Paul, no-one's expecting you to do handstands when you think Israel makes a boo boo. But to withdraw your support of Israel, when she falters? Bit extreme, isn't it?

No one is speaking of WITHDRAWL, are they?
Condeming what is done wrong is not an act of withdrawl.
That is why I asked Gman this:
You seem to be suggesting that we support what the Israeli government does, even if we disagree, just because it is Israel, is that it?

PaulSacramento wrote:

DannyM wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:[Look, just to be clear, I support Israel, but that does NOT equal supporting their government when they screw up big time, like when their military killed Canadian soldiers during the "Lebanon situation", or when their government has a chance for peace and they compromise it, or when one of their own kills their own prime minister.

Paul, no-one's expecting you to do handstands when you think Israel makes a boo boo. But to withdraw your support of Israel, when she falters? Bit extreme, isn't it?

No one is speaking of WITHDRAWL, are they?
Condeming what is done wrong is not an act of withdrawl.
That is why I asked Gman this:
You seem to be suggesting that we support what the Israeli government does, even if we disagree, just because it is Israel, is that it?

No, but you still support Israel, no matter what you think of a certain action or policy. You don't somehow start siding with those whose ultimate agenda is to oppose Israel at every turn, just because of a misdirected action or unpalatable policy. Do you see what I mean, Bro?

Gman wrote:Here are some great teachings on the subject..

http://www.c4israel.org/c4i/teachings/articles

Cheers G

Gman

http://www.palwatch.org/

You may have it, but useful if not.

neo-x wrote:Ofcourse Gman, that is a given. But then we have to define Israel. what is it? the Jews living in the area, the government? the ones who follow the law, who exactly are we talking about here? I am all up for supporting it, but what do you mean when you say Israel?

Jews are God's chosen people, I agree but then so is everyone who comes to Christ, we are all the same.

Yes.. All of it. Not to say that everything Israel does is always of God, but Israel is a people, with a covenant land, and with a government (even though it is secular). But yes, they do make mistakes just like any other government on this planet. But as I've stated before, the Israeli government far exceeds other governments I've seen in democracy. Not perfect, but not corrupt either. Has it been established by God? I think it has.. And one day it will turn into a true theocracy.

neo-x wrote:In God's eyes, the Jew is no greater then a common sinner who comes to Christ and is saved. Paul made this quite clear in Romans. They will be branched back, since they are the real olive shoot and we are the wild ones, but then that makes us all the same, in Christ, not one greater than the other, either way. I do not think that the church replaces Israel. God has a promise to those people and he will make it happen. But I don't think it makes them any more special than you and me. In Christ, race and nationality means nothing. I would say that God favours the righteous, that be Jew or gentile, alike. It doesn't matter who is who, and that only happens when we come to God through Christ, all, regardless of nationality.

ok.. And yes we know from scripture that God is not respecter of persons Ephesians 6:9.... However, God is also a God of roles... He has given the Jews "special" roles and a place in the world based on the covenants which are irrevocable. Please see Romans 11:28-29. But mind you it comes with a blessing and a curse.. Some of these blessings are the following..

1. Preservation - God has promised to preserve Israel nationally to the end of time (Genesis 17:7-8).

2. Oracles of God - God has committed his word to the Jew (Romans 3:1-2).

3. Believing Remnant During Church Age - Another blessing God has promised to Israel is that there would always be a believing remnant in every age (Rom. 11:5).

4. Of Whom, As Concerning the Flesh, Christ Came. The crowning glory of Israel is that when God became a man, He became a Jew.

5. The Reciprocal Blessing - When God called Abraham, He told him, "I will ble-ss them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee" (Gen. 12:3).

6. Promise of Restoration to the Land - One of the great national promises to Israel is that the Jewish people would be returned to their original land. This promise is repeated over and over again throughout the Scriptures (Amos 9:15).

A really good article can be found on this here:

http://www.lamblion.com/articles/articles_jews5.php

PaulSacramento wrote: I thought your questions rhetorical, sorry.
But I see hat you didn't answer mien as well
Look, just to be clear, I support Israel, but that does NOT equal supporting their government when they screw up big time, like when their military killed Canadian soldiers during the "Lebanon situation", or when their government has a chance for peace and they compromise it, or when one of their own kills their own prime minister.

Yes.. Friendly fire. All governments are guilty of that one or even assassination .. This even happens the U.S.. But we don't throw it away either.

PaulSacramento wrote:I've been to Israel and I have quite a few jewish friends and I know that even for THEM, Israel is far more than the geographical Israel and it is NOT the government.
Just saying.
You of course can feel free to disagree and I respect your view 100%, as always.

No problem.. Not all Jews are Zionists.. True, but just because the government may do a few bad things doesn't mean we throw the baby out with the bath water either.. That's the point I'm trying to make here.