Evidence for God from Science

Zionist wrote:exactly Gman. i mean who do believers think they'll be with for eternity just christians lol no but seriously Israel is important to all us believers and we must stand up for Israel our brethern in God in fact Israel is like God's time clock to the world and imo and according to a lot of prophecy events that take place in Israel lets us know where we stand in time.

Correct... It starts with Jerusalem and it ends with Jerusalem.. Very very few people see this when Yeshua will reign from there.. Zion will be complete, a true spiritual U.N. under G-d. Now when I see antisemitism it's a clear marker. Secular Zion however will transform into Biblical Zion before our very eyes.. Absolutely amazing.

Shema Israel..

Just don't mistake someone who doesn't believe Israel as a nation today is always right with anti-semitism.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Just don't mistake someone who doesn't believe Israel as a nation today is always right with anti-semitism.

Bart, I think anti-semitism however has it's roots with the nation of Israel in general or it's formation. Now while one could advocate ignorance, or an intolerance to secluar Zionism, there is that division too.

The belief here is that the nation of Israel as we see today has been setup by G-d. If this is denied, this is clearly an antisemitic marker.

@ Canuckster
so you're saying that it's okay for majority of muslim nations surrounding Israel to denounce Israel as a nation, fire rockets into their homeland and want to ultimately drive them to the sea not anti-semtic? o_O

Gman wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:Just don't mistake someone who doesn't believe Israel as a nation today is always right with anti-semitism.

Bart, I think anti-semitism however has it's roots with the nation of Israel in general or it's formation. Now while one could advocate ignorance, or an intolerance to secluar Zionism, there is that division too.

I don't see that at all Gman. Anti-semitism was around long before the nation of Israel re-established in 1948 and directed against the Jewish people who collectively formed (and largely still do) the diaspora. Criticising and disagreeing with an action of the Political Entity of Israel as run by their elected officials is not necessarily the same thing as prejudice against all Jews. The Political entity of Israel is not representative of all Jews in this earth. It's not even representative of the majority of Jews on the earth. All Jews in Israel are part of the Jewish Nation as a whole. Not all Jews in the world are represented by the political entity known as Israel and regardless of what a person's eschatology is, disagreeing with the actions or the policies of the political entity called Israel is not necessarily anti-semitism.

Zionist wrote:@ Canuckster
so you're saying that it's okay for majority of muslim nations surrounding Israel to denounce Israel as a nation, fire rockets into their homeland and want to ultimately drive them to the sea not anti-semtic? o_O

That has no connection to my statement whatsoever and is ridiculous enough to merit no further response.

Canuckster1127 wrote:
I don't see that at all Gman. Anti-semitism was around long before the nation of Israel re-established in 1948 and directed against the Jewish people who collectively formed (and largely still do) the diaspora. Criticising and disagreeing with an action of the Political Entity of Israel as run by their elected officials is not necessarily the same thing as prejudice against all Jews. The Political entity of Israel is not representative of all Jews in this earth. It's not even representative of the majority of Jews on the earth. All Jews in Israel are part of the Jewish Nation as a whole. Not all Jews in the world are represented by the political entity known as Israel and regardless of what a person's eschatology is, disagreeing with the actions or the policies of the political entity called Israel is not necessarily anti-semitism.

Yes.. Anti-semitism has been around since the Jews first formed on earth... And I would say that you are right that the political entity of Israel is not representative of all Jews. Also not all Jews are Israeli Zionists either. In fact many Jews oppose the formation of Israel. However, when we start talking about the land or existence of Israel as a nation in the middle east, and oppose that, then we are talking about a form of anti-semitism. As least if we are to take the Bible as our doctrine.

Gman wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:
I don't see that at all Gman. Anti-semitism was around long before the nation of Israel re-established in 1948 and directed against the Jewish people who collectively formed (and largely still do) the diaspora. Criticising and disagreeing with an action of the Political Entity of Israel as run by their elected officials is not necessarily the same thing as prejudice against all Jews. The Political entity of Israel is not representative of all Jews in this earth. It's not even representative of the majority of Jews on the earth. All Jews in Israel are part of the Jewish Nation as a whole. Not all Jews in the world are represented by the political entity known as Israel and regardless of what a person's eschatology is, disagreeing with the actions or the policies of the political entity called Israel is not necessarily anti-semitism.

Yes.. Anti-semitism has been around since the Jews first formed on earth... And I would say that you are right that the political entity of Israel is not representative of all Jews. Also not all Jews are Israeli Zionists either. In fact many Jews oppose the formation of Israel. However, when we start talking about the land or existence of Israel as a nation in the middle east, and oppose that, then we are talking about a form of anti-semitism. As least if we are to take the Bible as our doctrine.

There is anti-semitism in this world and there are anti-semites who are opposed to the existence of Israel as a Nation. I'm just saying that, disagreeing with Israel on an action or policy of theirs as a nation is not necessarily anti-semitism and not everyone who expresses such an opinion is anti-semitic.

My issue with some elements of Zionism is that this distinction is lost many times and the political entity of Israel, formed and run by men is equated with the Biblical tribe or descendents of Judah and they are not by definition the same. The nation of Israel as a political entity is not exempt from criticism nor are they always right in everything that they do.

That in no way justifies or legitimizes the rampant anti-Semitism that does exist in different forms in this world. The all or nothing thinking on both sides does not contribute at all toward solutions to the very real problems that exist in and around the country of Israel.

Canuckster1127 wrote:
There is anti-semitism in this world and there are anti-semites who are opposed to the existence of Israel as a Nation. I'm just saying that, disagreeing with Israel on an action or policy of theirs as a nation is not necessarily anti-semitism and not everyone who expresses such an opinion is anti-semitic.

No.. That would be an extreme. I don't think that is what anyone is saying here.. If that is the case, then we are all anti-semitics..

Canuckster1127 wrote:My issue with some elements of Zionism is that this distinction is lost many times and the political entity of Israel, formed and run by men is equated with the Biblical tribe or descendents of Judah and they are not by definition the same. The nation of Israel as a political entity is not exempt from criticism nor are they always right in everything that they do.

Yes.. And I think Israel get's it's fair share of criticism. Way more than China anyways.. The problem however I see is when we start talking about it's borders.. Or what's left of them.

Canuckster1127 wrote:That in no way justifies or legitimizes the rampant anti-Semitism that does exist in different forms in this world. The all or nothing thinking on both sides does not contribute at all toward solutions to the very real problems that exist in and around the country of Israel.

I have no problem with that.

@ Canuckster
nobody said we have to accept all things jewish or agree with all jewish political policy cuz actually as Christ made clear by exposing the pharisees and their rituals but to not recognize the existence of or having antisemtism towards Israel's existence would essentialy go against God's plan especially as believers in Christ and God's plan. i don't see anything ridiculous by showing that a lot of people who dont believe in Israel as a nation have the mind set of completely wanting their destruction or removal from their land cuz unfortunately that is how a lot of people think. thats the point i was trying to make.

Zionist wrote:@ Canuckster
nobody said we have to accept all things jewish or agree with all jewish political policy cuz actually as Christ made clear by exposing the pharisees and their rituals but to not recognize the existence of or having antisemtism towards Israel's existence would essentialy go against God's plan especially as believers in Christ and God's plan. i don't see anything ridiculous by showing that a lot of people who dont believe in Israel as a nation have the mind set of completely wanting their destruction or removal from their land cuz unfortunately that is how a lot of people think. thats the point i was trying to make.

I understand the point. However, you asked me personally, not theoretically and there was nothing in my comments that warranted that association with my statements.

Zionist wrote:@ Canuckster
nobody said we have to accept all things jewish or agree with all jewish political policy cuz actually as Christ made clear by exposing the pharisees and their rituals but to not recognize the existence of or having antisemtism towards Israel's existence would essentialy go against God's plan especially as believers in Christ and God's plan. i don't see anything ridiculous by showing that a lot of people who dont believe in Israel as a nation have the mind set of completely wanting their destruction or removal from their land cuz unfortunately that is how a lot of people think. thats the point i was trying to make.

Good point... I would say it's hard to label.. Or people who just want to chisel away on it. Hard to say what the ultimate motive is here.. In fact it all could be connected in some way to it's removal also..

@ Canuckster
well since you're initial comment was short and not explained thoroughly at first i wasn't sure what your angle was so sorry if it seemed i came at you personaly but i wasn't sure what points you were trying to make so for the misunderstanding i apologize.

Zionist wrote:@ Canuckster
well since you're initial comment was short and not explained thoroughly at first i wasn't sure what your angle was so sorry if it seemed i came at you personaly but i wasn't sure what points you were trying to make so for the misunderstanding i apologize.

Zion.. Just for the record.. Our Canuckster can be a complicated bird to figure out sometimes. I think he would agree with that. He is probably the most educated here on this board which makes him hard to read sometimes..

But I read you loud and clear...