Evidence for God from Science

sandy_mcd wrote:

wrain62 wrote:He messed up badly on minute 52. First he called Carl Sagan Carl Pagan and then he called National Geographic National... well I will let you look it up. LOL but it's probably bad to laugh about...

Did he mess up or did he do them on purpose? It's pretty common in these heated topic areas to disparage anything about those you disagree with.

It is disrespectful.

Seriously though, I disagree when he says here unless it was truly a slip that he did not catch. The idea that God wants the earth to look like it is millions of yearsbecause he does not want to come to Christ is absurd. Why would Christ come if God did not want people to come to believe him?

1:47:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY0rj-TE ... ure=relmfu

wrain62 wrote:The idea that God wants the earth to look like it is millions of years because he does not want to come to Christ is absurd.

I think he is being sarcastic here, although it isn't done well. I would have to sit through a lot of his talks to see if this and the earlier "slips" are more likely accidental or deliberate. And that I don't want to do. Although I must confess he is a very entertaining speaker. Also the way he picks what sort of scientific results to accept and which to criticize is interesting.

wrain62 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szBTl3S24MY

He messed up badly on minute 52. First he called Carl Sagan Carl Pagan and then he called National Geographic National... well I will let you look it up. LOL but it's probably bad to laugh about...

Been watching a lot of Hovind's stuff of late and from what I can tell National Pornographic was a joke. I would guess that Carl Pagan was an attempted joke but didn't come off as well as the National Geographic one..

wrain62 wrote:Seriously though, I disagree when he says here unless it was truly a slip that he did not catch. The idea that God wants the earth to look like it is millions of yearsbecause he does not want to come to Christ is absurd. Why would Christ come if God did not want people to come to believe him?

1:47:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY0rj-TE ... ure=relmfu

Yeah to me it seems like either a mistake, or sarcasm gone horribly wrong. Watched Seminars 1,2,3,4 and just started on 6 right now, and from what I've seen throughout the series thus far it is in complete opposition to what he has being saying... perhaps I'll e-mail the Dr Dino site. See what they have to say.

Hovind is an embarrasment to YEC. He was very impressed with his own humor and laced his presentations with these kinds of 'slips.' I assure you they were intentional. Any valid point he did make (and there were some) was often lost in the ridiculous, or his sorry attempts at humor.

jlay wrote:Hovind is an embarrasment to YEC. He was very impressed with his own humor and laced his presentations with these kinds of 'slips.' I assure you they were intentional.

Gotta disagree with you there. Personally I think he made some fairly good jokes throughout his seminar's So he laughed at a few of his own jokes, so what? Of course some of the 'slips' were intentional, most were fairly harmless.

Any valid point he did make (and there were some) was often lost in the ridiculous, or his sorry attempts at humor.

Not quite sure what you're getting at here....
His vids have certainly changed my life in many ways. I was a Christian with many doubts. I hadn't been exposed to many of the views and arguments he presented. Breathed new life into my faith. I'm not saying I'm sold on, or agree with everything that he said but labeling him as an embarrassment to YEC is just plain ridiculous and quite frankly unnecessarily negative.

His issues with regard to his imprisonment are independent of his YEC views. His legal issues were with regard to tax payment so if someone wants to be convinced outside of that then that's their perogative. I think it goes to character and that there are better sources to draw positions from, but that's my opinion and certainly doesn't invalidate other opinions which are contrary to mine in that regard.

I'm glad that you find some comfort in his positions with regard to YEC. I dont agree with YEC, but I don't believe that those who do don't have some valid points to assert, although I think they're stronger rhetorically or philosophical than they are in the realm of science.

Opinons are something we've all got and in terms of the significance of YEC or OEC for that matter while it certainly can have relevance in other areas, I don't believe it makes a difference that goes to issues that are cardinal or that would preclude anyone from being saved.

I think most if not all OEC proponents would believe that. Some YEC proponents come pretty close to the line or cross it at times in my opinion, such as Ken Ham at times. I haven't looked at "Dr. Dino" for years so I'm rusty if there's evidence that he goes that far or not.

Canuckster1127 wrote:His issues with regard to his imprisonment are independent of his YEC views. His legal issues were with regard to tax payment so if someone wants to be convinced outside of that then that's their perogative. I think it goes to character and that there are better sources to draw positions from, but that's my opinion and certainly doesn't invalidate other opinions which are contrary to mine in that regard.

Yeah look when I heard that he had gone to prison I certainly was disappointed upon hearing the news, but it doesn't alter the content of the message. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone; has he made mistakes, yeah, but his intent is clear as day I would say.

What sources would you recommend, Dr Jonathan Sarfati?

I'm glad that you find some comfort in his positions with regard to YEC. I dont agree with YEC, but I don't believe that those who do don't have some valid points to assert, although I think they're stronger rhetorically or philosophical than they are in the realm of science.

Opinons are something we've all got and in terms of the significance of YEC or OEC for that matter while it certainly can have relevance in other areas, I don't believe it makes a difference that goes to issues that are cardinal or that would preclude anyone from being saved.

I think most if not all OEC proponents would believe that. Some YEC proponents come pretty close to the line or cross it at times in my opinion, such as Ken Ham at times. I haven't looked at "Dr. Dino" for years so I'm rusty if there's evidence that he goes that far or not.

Let me put it this way, Hovind's seminars have kick-started my relationship with God, it had been dormant for quite some time, with doubts and questions having crept in. Honestly right now I'm stuck in the middle of YEC and OEC, with good arguments being presented on both sides; but I've only begun to delve and it's been an interesting journey so far. Look forward to 'completing' it...
I can tell you this much though, the OEC view that finds no fault in marrying evolution and the Bible / Christianity is not something I hold to, yet surprisingly there are quite a few out there.

Yeah look when I heard that he had gone to prison I certainly was disappointed upon hearing the news, but it doesn't alter the content of the message. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone; has he made mistakes, yeah, but his intent is clear as day I would say.

Stu, the difference between casting stones at believers who sin, and pointing out Hovind's sentence, is that as far as I know, Hovind remains unrepentant for the crimes that landed him in prison. He is truly full of himself. Hovind, IMO, is a horrible caricature of YEC.

I can tell you this much though, the OEC view that finds no fault in marrying evolution and the Bible / Christianity is not something I hold to, yet surprisingly there are quite a few out there.

Stu, evolution is a very broad term. Just be sure what kind of evolution you are against.

OEC progressive creationists are not evolutionists. There's a world of difference between Theistic Evolution and OEC Progressive evolution. Now, there's no doubt some variance between some of the various positions with OEC (and YEC tends to appear to be more monolithic in that regard, although there's certainly differences there as well) and those are interesting too.

In terms of knowing Christ these issues are relatively very small and it encourages me to hear that God's working in you, even if he's using a source that I would have difficulty giving a lot of respect to for a variety of reasons. So what? If God's working in your life and you're being drawn into a closer walk with Him, then praise God for that and I'm glad that's how things are playing out for you. Maybe in the future you'll revisit things and see things a little differently, maybe not. God used a donkey in the old testament to get Balaam's attention. He even uses me sometimes in other contexts and I'm grateful for that.

So Stu, I'm glad you're here and I'm glad you're doing the seeking you are. You're on a grand journey and you'll likely understand many things differently at the end than you do at the beginning. What's most important is to love and know God and if that's strong and matured over time the other stuff seems to have a way of falling into place.

RickD wrote:Stu, the difference between casting stones at believers who sin, and pointing out Hovind's sentence, is that as far as I know, Hovind remains unrepentant for the crimes that landed him in prison.

Hmm thanks, I never knew that...

He is truly full of himself. Hovind, IMO, is a horrible caricature of YEC.

Are you saying that based on his legal issues, or his young earth views? Because if it's the former then surely he would be a horrible caricature of not only YEC, but Christianity.

Stu, evolution is a very broad term. Just be sure what kind of evolution you are against.

Yip that's true. Macro-evolution.

Canuckster1127 wrote:OEC progressive creationists are not evolutionists. There's a world of difference between Theistic Evolution and OEC Progressive evolution. Now, there's no doubt some variance between some of the various positions with OEC (and YEC tends to appear to be more monolithic in that regard, although there's certainly differences there as well) and those are interesting too.

Yeah sorry should've been more clear, as you say I was referring to Theistic Evolution.

In terms of knowing Christ these issues are relatively very small and it encourages me to hear that God's working in you, even if he's using a source that I would have difficulty giving a lot of respect to for a variety of reasons. So what? If God's working in your life and you're being drawn into a closer walk with Him, then praise God for that and I'm glad that's how things are playing out for you. Maybe in the future you'll revisit things and see things a little differently, maybe not. God used a donkey in the old testament to get Balaam's attention. He even uses me sometimes in other contexts and I'm grateful for that.

I just think as people we are quick to judge, but God can see the bigger picture and still use a man like Hovind to do good, be it with his past (video seminars) or future actions (in prison). Of course Personalities play a role but more importantly it's the message that is being delivered that counts.
By the way I'm not some loyal Hovind supporter, his seminar's have helped me tremendously, but if he is unrepentant for his actions I'm not going to condone that either. I also don't agree with everything that he says regards YEC.

So Stu, I'm glad you're here and I'm glad you're doing the seeking you are. You're on a grand journey and you'll likely understand many things differently at the end than you do at the beginning. What's most important is to love and know God and if that's strong and matured over time the other stuff seems to have a way of falling into place.

Thanks man, it feels great to be back on track once again Yeah sometimes we can get stuck in the details and miss the bigger picture.

For those interested, I did e-mail the Dr Dino site and they have responded:

We are so glad that you have been blessed by the Creation videos put out by CSE. Thank you for the encouragement your words have been to us. If you have watched the Creation Seminar by Dr. Hovind, then you know that he does not believe in the universe, the earth, nor any erosion being millions of years old. Therefore, if you think he said something that sounded like this, you can conclude that either
1) you heard incorrectly,
2) Dr. Hovind said it wrong on accident, or
3) he was being sarcastic.

I hope this is helpful.

Kevan Myers
Psalm 119:160

There is still time to win a battle before the sun goes down.

He is truly full of himself. Hovind, IMO, is a horrible caricature of YEC.



Are you saying that based on his legal issues, or his young earth views? Because if it's the former then surely he would be a horrible caricature of not only YEC, but Christianity.

Stu, I'm saying that he is full of himself, because of the way he conducts himself(from what I've seen), and, because he thought he was above the law. He, IMO, doesn't represent YEC. If you want a good idea of why I think Hovind is full of himself, then look at these videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNuHuG517lI

Wasn't Kent Hovind the guy who once suggested that men used to tear the arms off of Tyrannosaurus Rex so that they would bleed to death?

HOVIND STATEMENT 5. In ancient literature what were called "dragons" where actually dinosaurs. The way they killed these dragons namely T-Rex was to pull off their small arm, and let them bleed to death.

http://www.bibleandscience.com/otherviews/hovind.htm

Had to check that, nice.