Evidence for God from Science

Ivellious wrote:I think that it takes far more thought and mental power to determine what you really believe, as opposed to taking the first thing someone tells you as a child and never questioning it.

Well, I think it depends on what type of person we are. I personally may be able to hold to something while I don't understand it properly (during my childhood, for instance), but as I start to become acquainted with the topic, I start to develop my own opinion. One of the main reasons why this happens is that I just can't believe in something that doesn't make sense to me, no matter if I was taught that way, or if a majority of the people accept it. It is true, however, that people in general often become emotionally tied to their worldview. I admit that I'm one of them - but nevertheless, Christianity is the worldview that seems most reasonable to me.

I agree with Reactionary, though I'm more of a play-by-the-book person. Doesn't mean I won't question it though, actually, it probably prompts me to ask too many because I have to know every little detail about what I'm playing by

I would also argue that Christianity, especially in the USA, is no longer "taught". Kids don't know what Catechism is. They have absolutely no idea about the reasons behind their faith. And it will be very sad when they leave because they were challenged only once, and it was enough to throw their world upside down.

StMonicaGuideMe wrote:I would also argue that Christianity, especially in the USA, is no longer "taught". Kids don't know what Catechism is. They have absolutely no idea about the reasons behind their faith. And it will be very sad when they leave because they were challenged only once, and it was enough to throw their world upside down.

It's not much different in my country either. Religious education in schools, which is de facto Catholic catechesis, and is taught as an optional subject is, to be honest, very often a joke. The only reason why students look forward to it is because they, in most cases, get the highest mark with little or no effort. Catholic catechesis is taught in churches as well, but most students only attend it in the year before the first communion (in elementary school), and before confirmation/chrismation (in high school), because it's required in order to receive the sacrament. Again, the point of receiving sacraments, for many, is to get an expensive gift from the wider family who will come for a visit, and an abundant lunch that may involve several kilograms of meat and fat.

Regarding what is actually learned, besides how bacon tastes in different counties, it's mostly doctrinal stuff, but does it prepare you for challenges made by the 21st century secular world? Very questionable. Personally, I haven't heard of a Bible study group, or an apologetics study. The majority of what I know about Christianity, I've learned through books I bought myself, and on the Internet - to be specific, on sites like this one.

To be honest, Reactionary, I completely agree with your stance on developing your own opinion. Sorry if I was unclear; I equally respect atheists, christians, muslims, jews, etc. As long as they have actually thought critically about their religion. The people who grow up christian and then later in life reflect on it and choose to leave it based on disagreement with its tenants have a ton of respect from me, but the same goes for someone raised christian who later reads the Bible, reflects on it and it's teachings, forms opinions and chooses to believe in it. It's that act of taking responsibility for your own beliefs instead of living life forever locked into what you were raised as and never allowing anyone or anything to question it.

Of course, I feel that respect of other people's beliefs and lives is also paramount, though I've noticed from personal experience that it is far more common to see respectfulness from someone who actively thinks about his/her views than those who do not. Just my opinion on that anyway.

My biggest problem are people who never allow themselves to form their own beliefs, instead taking the easy way out and just doing what you are told. I've met lots of people who left Christianity or simply look at it differently because their parents/religious leaders growing up made them feel like they had to assimilate or else something was wrong with them and they needed to be helped. That is inhibitory to free thinking, not allowing it. And that's not a commentary on the religion itself, but rather the structure of religion today, where it is like a struggle to get more youth to believe in you than the other group. It's just sad.

Ivellious, I agree with your "biggest problem", there are many of those in every denomination, including atheism. I've also met "lots of people" who jump on the secular bandwagon, quick to dismiss any value Christianity has given to the world, be it it's contributions to art, music, history, law, philosophy, etc, just because it came from Christianity and they've been indoctrinated to believe this, and since its popular, they don't bother really thinking about it. Nope, it's aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall invalid because "Christians killed people during the Crusades" or "the inquisition? look it up!" Throwing the baby out with the bathwater, as they say.

The difference, unfortunately, between many Christians and non-believers is that we actually try to treat others kindly, regardless of how they treat us. This is why we will fight tooth-and-nail with our own immoral natures to not succumb to personal attacks of those challenging us, even though they do it to us almost immediately. Could you empathize with us for a moment, and cast a critical eye at those who see the world as you do? We are called stupid, ignorant, brainwashed, pathetic, archaic fools who believe in a "bronze aged god" (implying that modernism is so much better ... isn't that a fallacy? )etc.

Why would they say such cruel, unjust and unsubstantiated blanket-statements about people they do not know personally? Even worse, why would they say these things to people they DO know personally, yet aren't any of the things they're calling them? What could possibly account for such rage? Why would they spend so much time bashing a God they "know does not exist"? Why not just let the stupid, ignorant Christians go about their way peacefully? Why do they rail against us?

We know the answer, so don't feel the need to answer for our sake. But I'm curious, what are your thoughts?

StMonicaGuideMe: Well, as I'm apparently already labeled as an atheist here, I'll make it clear again. I'm not an atheist, I'm just not strictly speaking a part of any branch of Christianity. I love discussing my beliefs, but this isn't about that.

I can't really speak for atheists or all people who aren't Christian in general, but I'll try to explain some stuff as I see it. Also, I just want to point out that atheists aren't the only ones out there mindlessly and ignorantly pushing their views on others. Many Christians are quick to hate on atheists and muslims and so on without realizing the value that those cultures/groups have brought to the table.

1) People are, and particularly young people are, adversarial by nature. This goes for both the super Evangelical Christians who visit my university regularly as well as the atheists who like to visit forums and youtube/facebook pages. So, there are a good number of people who I think are insulting just because they know they can get others flustered and up in arms over their beliefs. I don't really like this brand of attack because it really has no meaning or purpose and is just being done to bug people.

2) Misinformation. Once again, all sides are reeeeaaaalllly bad about this. Atheists enjoy taking quotes and past events out of context. Christians enjoy taking things that Atheists have done and miserably misinterpreting them. My favorites are "Hitler was an Atheist" and "look at the crusades!" I classify these as being attempts to cover up a lack of information or lack of arguments with shock value and mostly irrelevant trivia. Ultimately this tool is used mostly in persuasion, I've noticed. People get caught up in your misleading info and suddenly the argument is just yelling and anger, which gets nothing accomplished, but also distracts others from the fact that you were losing an argument.

3) Mutual hating. Lots of times, atheists get pissed off about hearing Christians denounce and stereotype them, do they turn to trying to reverse the hate on Christians. Give them a taste of their own medicine I guess. No, not all Christians do this, but the media and majority of people in this country are Christian and the more vocal ones are pretty cruel and terrible about it. The Christians respond to the atheists and then everyone gets mad. Endless cycle of hate, the end.

Now, I don't like that you point out that all Christians treat everyone kindly and respectfully and always take the high road. They don't, plain and simple. Many do (and most on this site, kudos to you). But again, just as it's unfair to stereotype all atheists as bashing hateful name-callers, it's unfair to say that all Christians don't do anything to start the trouble sometimes.

I'll say it again, there are good and bad on both sides. Christians are quick to point out the charity work they do and so on without noticing the idiots and bigots among them. Atheists will point out their own "intelligence" and good qualities without seeing that there are other atheists out there giving them a bad name. I actually liken atheists to how feminists are viewed today: most feminists are really fighting for good causes and equal representation and battling stereotypes, but a select few outspoken extremists hurt the whole group because it's really easy to point to the bad apples among them and label them all as such. I would just warn you not to fall into the fallacy of judging all atheists the same way you judge the dummies who troll on forums with hurtful names.

Sorry for the novel, I tend to ramble.

We didn't mean to label you man. We try to be open minded haha.

Murray wrote:First thing that came to my mind when I read this verse was immediately "free thinkers"( those who think they think freely while having their thoughts governed by the all mighty Dawkins)

"They Promise freedom, while they themselves are slaves~for people are slaves to whatever has mastered them."
2 Peter 2:19

Years ago, I joined a philosophy club that met at a Unitarian Universalist church. Although it was all right to disagree with other club members, they seemed to obey an unwritten rule: You shall not argue against anything any other club member says.

wrain62 wrote:We didn't mean to label you man. We try to be open minded haha.

Some people Love labels, some wish to live a unconstrained life. I am a member of the latter group. If "Freethinking" leads to freedom, then what is the problem?

Nah freethinking is not the problem but to claim that freethinking and suscribing yourself to Christianity are mutually exclusive. What do you mean by freethinking leads to freedom:

What is free thinking to you?

What is freedom to you?

I gotta ask because this can get confusing or sophomoric...

Well, I never meant to claim that Christianity (or religion or atheism or whatever) and free thinking are mutually exclusive. I think many people make it that way, where they fail to question or they block out everything not pertaining to their religion or philosophy. Actually defining free thinking is more challenging because it can be defined so many different ways in many contexts...

Ivellious wrote:Well, I never meant to claim that Christianity (or religion or atheism or whatever) and free thinking are mutually exclusive. I think many people make it that way, where they fail to question or they block out everything not pertaining to their religion or philosophy. Actually defining free thinking is more challenging because it can be defined so many different ways in many contexts...

You're right, many DO make it that way and it baffles me. That's incredibly refreshing to hear, actually. Most of the time, all we hear as Christians is that our faith is reasonless and that our own intellectual abilities are put into question. That, or we're lying. Great place to be in. We're either stupid or we're smart liars.