Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 2:39 pm
To begin, I would like to say that I am not the type (anymore) to frequent Christian message board or websites in an effort to defend my position as an atheist. I think people of any religion, ethnicity, or sexual preference who feel the need to invade the space of others and push forward their own agendas are immature and have yet to become comfortable enough in their own belief/cultural structure to accept the differences of others.
I would like to ask this, before anything: why would a Christian message board so blatantly goad atheists into an argument, but then argue that any atheist who bites is not really an atheist? Why talk about atheism in this context at all and postulate on the beliefs of other people? In my opinion, one should stick to their own beliefs and only discuss the beliefs of others when it is appropriate (and so little time seems appropriate anymore in the harshly divided politcal and religious climate of not just America, but the world today).
I found this board only because I was looking for a specific quote about atheism that I had read at one point in time several years ago, but this came up in Google and the title alone piqued my interest enough for me to check in to see what was going on. I think the topic and the opinions expressed are narrow minded, bigoted and assume that anyone that does not follow your express train of though on the subject of religion and Christianity in particular is only in denial of the truth.
But the truth is an individuals perception, in this case. What I hold as the truths of my world you do not hold as the thruths of your world and vice versa. It is a the responsibility of a mature adult (or of any human being) to be open enough to understand that not everyone's belief systems line up, but that does not make them any less of a person.
I do not believe in a god Christian or otherwise. But, however, I do believe in the concept of a god or gods and understand how people can believe in those things. My particular belief is that there is no supreme being at all, and what you all are not understanding about atheism is that it is not just the disbelief in a Christian god but any god. You take it as a personal attack on your savior, but Atheists simply do not believe. We have faith in the belief that there is no god the same way you have faith in the Christian dogma.
The reason Atheists are so quick to attack Christians is because of the simple fact that, for the most part, few people actually live the teachings of Christ or the Bible (and few people can rarely agree on details within the dogma itself, hence the many denominations). America, at the moment, is being run by one of the most religious presidentail regimes in some time, and it scares those of us who are in any way alternative because there is the constant scare of having our civil rights revoked because we do not align with those in power.
You can argue that the framers of our constitution were Christian, but they were also Humanist. This means that they respect each individuals right to live and breath and that all men are, indeed, created equal (created, of course, could be argued as a creationist statement but the key word is not created but rather EQUAL).
So many Christians preach but do little to show that they are living by those exact dictates that they lay on the godless heathens that they see around them. Christians, and everyone, should live by example as opposed to clumsily spreading their beliefs around and damning anyone who refuses to align with them.
As for my beliefs in chemical reactions and such, I do not HAVE to believe anything that I do not want to. I let my mind take me where it will, and I allow for its ability to change beliefs over a period of years, because I'm young still and my perception of the world shifts ever so slightly each day because of new experiences.
As a whole, atheists make up a major proportion of the world's religions, but Christianity is still the plurality (not a majority, but a plurality). But of course with two billion Christians in the world that leaves four billion non-Christians. When you ask what is winning, religion or atheism, I assume that you mean more specifically Christianity or Atheism. The thing is, this is not a competition, it is religion. There is no winning or losing, but rather beliefs of groups and of indviduals. It is a shame that religion has killed so many billions of people over the course of history, because it shows us very clearly that tolerance is not accepted anywhere at anytime.
In regards to the being "mad at God" approach to Atheism, I am not in any way mad at God or any deity for that matter. I don't believe in them, and it is that simple. It is my belief, and just because you don't understand it does not make it any less valid. There are a lot of things in the world that the average person, or even the above average person, cannot understand. No one can truly grasp the concept of infinity, because infinity is beyond the grasp of our minds. It is never ending, but in our worlds there is a beginning and an end to everything.
This natural predilection toward having a beginning and end to everything is, I believe, one of the major reasons for the propagation of religion. We are unsure where we come from, so we use religion to answer these questions. We are unsure of where we are going so we use religion to answer these questions. I don't need these questions answered for me, because I understand that they are beyond the realm of truly understanding because my brain, just as yours, are not able to understand the significance of things like infinity or death.
I believe all the matter in this universe has existed and will continue to exist in some form or another. Matter, as far as we know, cannot be created nor destroyed. Matter has had many forms over the course of the infinite number of years that it has been around, but it is an absolute. It was never created, it just was and I don't feel the need to have this explain, I have faith in this fact. I also know that when I am dead I am dead, there is no afterlife because my brain will shut down and it will cease to matter. The brain cannot comprehend not being able to think, to communicate, to operate because even in doing that it is completing all of those tasks. Death is a scary, terrible thing because I love life, but at the same time I know that I will be gone and there will be nothing to worry about. Death is only a fear of the living.
Some atheists do read and analyze the Bible with the best of the Christian scholars, but I don't feel the need. What interest I have in the Bible is not as the word of God but as a reason for events that have happened and continue to happen. I rarely, if ever, argue the Bible with anyone because I find it pointless. Christians argue that it is the word of God and atheists argue that it is not, but the only way to make for a good debate is if you debate the larger subject: God. If I argue God with someone, the rules of civilized debate would say that they cannot use the Bible as evidence because we are arguing something above the Bible. If God does not exist than the Bible is no longer a work of faith but a work of ficiton, so you can't use the redundant debate that God exists because the Bible is the word of God. But I'm not trying to get into that debate here, and I have a feeling many of the people on this board have already tuned out my words and have begun an arguments based on things that I have said without reading the entire piece.
If this happens I will not respond.
My only suggestion is to not worry about why atheists exist or if they are real because we are. Just because you do not align with our beliefs does not mean that we are somehow in denial about something, or angry at God, or any number of other things that people have put forth. We are simply different in our thought processes than you are, and that has to be accepted. I accept the fact that I do not truly understand all of the motivations that many Christians, or people of any religion, have but I accept that people believe differently that I do. I do not try to force anything upon anyone and prefer civilized discourse over screaming fits of faith-based rage.
I do not want to be in a longstanding debate on this board, but since there was no representation of my own faith in this argument about it, I felt the need to step in. If anyone has any questions I will answer them as long as they are neutral and not pointed in order to goad me into argument or anger. I want neither, but I will answer any honest questions about my belief the best I can without forcing anything upon anyone. I don't like that. I respect you only as much as you respect me. You may ask about my beliefs specifically or my lifestyle, just so long as the questions are, as I have said, neutral, honest, and not pointed.
For all of your who have taken the time to read all of my post before formulating opinions about me, and for those of you who accept me as a person with different thoughts as your own but not less of a person than you I thank you. There are so many people out there giving Christians and other religious groups a bad name because they refuse to accept anything but their own belief, and anyone not following along with that is not equal.
I hope this doesn't cause too much of a stir. Ask what you will.
Sincerely yours,
Josh
I would like to ask this, before anything: why would a Christian message board so blatantly goad atheists into an argument, but then argue that any atheist who bites is not really an atheist? Why talk about atheism in this context at all and postulate on the beliefs of other people? In my opinion, one should stick to their own beliefs and only discuss the beliefs of others when it is appropriate (and so little time seems appropriate anymore in the harshly divided politcal and religious climate of not just America, but the world today).
I found this board only because I was looking for a specific quote about atheism that I had read at one point in time several years ago, but this came up in Google and the title alone piqued my interest enough for me to check in to see what was going on. I think the topic and the opinions expressed are narrow minded, bigoted and assume that anyone that does not follow your express train of though on the subject of religion and Christianity in particular is only in denial of the truth.
But the truth is an individuals perception, in this case. What I hold as the truths of my world you do not hold as the thruths of your world and vice versa. It is a the responsibility of a mature adult (or of any human being) to be open enough to understand that not everyone's belief systems line up, but that does not make them any less of a person.
I do not believe in a god Christian or otherwise. But, however, I do believe in the concept of a god or gods and understand how people can believe in those things. My particular belief is that there is no supreme being at all, and what you all are not understanding about atheism is that it is not just the disbelief in a Christian god but any god. You take it as a personal attack on your savior, but Atheists simply do not believe. We have faith in the belief that there is no god the same way you have faith in the Christian dogma.
The reason Atheists are so quick to attack Christians is because of the simple fact that, for the most part, few people actually live the teachings of Christ or the Bible (and few people can rarely agree on details within the dogma itself, hence the many denominations). America, at the moment, is being run by one of the most religious presidentail regimes in some time, and it scares those of us who are in any way alternative because there is the constant scare of having our civil rights revoked because we do not align with those in power.
You can argue that the framers of our constitution were Christian, but they were also Humanist. This means that they respect each individuals right to live and breath and that all men are, indeed, created equal (created, of course, could be argued as a creationist statement but the key word is not created but rather EQUAL).
So many Christians preach but do little to show that they are living by those exact dictates that they lay on the godless heathens that they see around them. Christians, and everyone, should live by example as opposed to clumsily spreading their beliefs around and damning anyone who refuses to align with them.
As for my beliefs in chemical reactions and such, I do not HAVE to believe anything that I do not want to. I let my mind take me where it will, and I allow for its ability to change beliefs over a period of years, because I'm young still and my perception of the world shifts ever so slightly each day because of new experiences.
As a whole, atheists make up a major proportion of the world's religions, but Christianity is still the plurality (not a majority, but a plurality). But of course with two billion Christians in the world that leaves four billion non-Christians. When you ask what is winning, religion or atheism, I assume that you mean more specifically Christianity or Atheism. The thing is, this is not a competition, it is religion. There is no winning or losing, but rather beliefs of groups and of indviduals. It is a shame that religion has killed so many billions of people over the course of history, because it shows us very clearly that tolerance is not accepted anywhere at anytime.
In regards to the being "mad at God" approach to Atheism, I am not in any way mad at God or any deity for that matter. I don't believe in them, and it is that simple. It is my belief, and just because you don't understand it does not make it any less valid. There are a lot of things in the world that the average person, or even the above average person, cannot understand. No one can truly grasp the concept of infinity, because infinity is beyond the grasp of our minds. It is never ending, but in our worlds there is a beginning and an end to everything.
This natural predilection toward having a beginning and end to everything is, I believe, one of the major reasons for the propagation of religion. We are unsure where we come from, so we use religion to answer these questions. We are unsure of where we are going so we use religion to answer these questions. I don't need these questions answered for me, because I understand that they are beyond the realm of truly understanding because my brain, just as yours, are not able to understand the significance of things like infinity or death.
I believe all the matter in this universe has existed and will continue to exist in some form or another. Matter, as far as we know, cannot be created nor destroyed. Matter has had many forms over the course of the infinite number of years that it has been around, but it is an absolute. It was never created, it just was and I don't feel the need to have this explain, I have faith in this fact. I also know that when I am dead I am dead, there is no afterlife because my brain will shut down and it will cease to matter. The brain cannot comprehend not being able to think, to communicate, to operate because even in doing that it is completing all of those tasks. Death is a scary, terrible thing because I love life, but at the same time I know that I will be gone and there will be nothing to worry about. Death is only a fear of the living.
Some atheists do read and analyze the Bible with the best of the Christian scholars, but I don't feel the need. What interest I have in the Bible is not as the word of God but as a reason for events that have happened and continue to happen. I rarely, if ever, argue the Bible with anyone because I find it pointless. Christians argue that it is the word of God and atheists argue that it is not, but the only way to make for a good debate is if you debate the larger subject: God. If I argue God with someone, the rules of civilized debate would say that they cannot use the Bible as evidence because we are arguing something above the Bible. If God does not exist than the Bible is no longer a work of faith but a work of ficiton, so you can't use the redundant debate that God exists because the Bible is the word of God. But I'm not trying to get into that debate here, and I have a feeling many of the people on this board have already tuned out my words and have begun an arguments based on things that I have said without reading the entire piece.
If this happens I will not respond.
My only suggestion is to not worry about why atheists exist or if they are real because we are. Just because you do not align with our beliefs does not mean that we are somehow in denial about something, or angry at God, or any number of other things that people have put forth. We are simply different in our thought processes than you are, and that has to be accepted. I accept the fact that I do not truly understand all of the motivations that many Christians, or people of any religion, have but I accept that people believe differently that I do. I do not try to force anything upon anyone and prefer civilized discourse over screaming fits of faith-based rage.
I do not want to be in a longstanding debate on this board, but since there was no representation of my own faith in this argument about it, I felt the need to step in. If anyone has any questions I will answer them as long as they are neutral and not pointed in order to goad me into argument or anger. I want neither, but I will answer any honest questions about my belief the best I can without forcing anything upon anyone. I don't like that. I respect you only as much as you respect me. You may ask about my beliefs specifically or my lifestyle, just so long as the questions are, as I have said, neutral, honest, and not pointed.
For all of your who have taken the time to read all of my post before formulating opinions about me, and for those of you who accept me as a person with different thoughts as your own but not less of a person than you I thank you. There are so many people out there giving Christians and other religious groups a bad name because they refuse to accept anything but their own belief, and anyone not following along with that is not equal.
I hope this doesn't cause too much of a stir. Ask what you will.
Sincerely yours,
Josh