Evidence for God from Science

Thanks...

BW, here's my view in a condensed version that leaves some supporting viewpoints out, but I'm looking for your opinion on it:

Where sin is practiced faith is weakened. Where faith is practiced, sin is weakened. Since faith is the door of our salvation, unchecked sin could eventually overpower and destroy faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Based on that only, someone 'could' sin enough to destroy his faith, and therefore salvation. However, Paul says that we are disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the rest of the world. Several other places mention that we all need discipline, and not to fear it. The Bible also says that the good work begun in us will be continued. So, based on that, a person left to himself would eventually fall away and loose faith. However, God won't let that happen. He will discipline us in order to keep us. Jesus said he would come looking if we strayed. He never promised He would be gentle bringing us back home though...

In a nutshell: No, a believer CANNOT lose his salvation for the simple reason that God will not let things go that far. However, a believer CAN earn himself a Holy butt whoopin' if he doesn't follow God's advice. I've been there. If He didn't get rid of me after everything, I don't think there's much to worry about.

jestes wrote:BW, here's my view in a condensed version that leaves some supporting viewpoints out, but I'm looking for your opinion on it:

Where sin is practiced faith is weakened. Where faith is practiced, sin is weakened. Since faith is the door of our salvation, unchecked sin could eventually overpower and destroy faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Based on that only, someone 'could' sin enough to destroy his faith, and therefore salvation. However, Paul says that we are disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the rest of the world. Several other places mention that we all need discipline, and not to fear it. The Bible also says that the good work begun in us will be continued. So, based on that, a person left to himself would eventually fall away and loose faith. However, God won't let that happen. He will discipline us in order to keep us. Jesus said he would come looking if we strayed. He never promised He would be gentle bringing us back home though...

In a nutshell: No, a believer CANNOT lose his salvation for the simple reason that God will not let things go that far. However, a believer CAN earn himself a Holy butt whoopin' if he doesn't follow God's advice. I've been there. If He didn't get rid of me after everything, I don't think there's much to worry about.

That pretty much sums up what I currently glean from the bible on this matter by balancing all sides of scripture together. The Greek word translated save in the bible is an interesting word to look into. I find that I can rest in him, from this, I can do his will, and when I screw up – it’s off to the woodshed… This way I learn that he loved me first and will not let me go. I find comfort in that. It is not a license to sin, it is grace as Titus 2:11-15 speaks of… By this grace is how I examine myself – proving my faith i.e. having my trust in Christ increase from faith to faith…
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Salvation is not a single dimensional event, so while I believe that once someone is in a saving relationship with Christ, he or she is brought into an everlasting covenant with God, where our security is in God's covenant promise, and not anything else, we should consider this when we discuss it too:

Salvation is mentioned in all the Greek verb tenses:
Future Events or Actions (Future Tense): Heb 1:14; Heb 9:28, Rom. 5:8, Rom 5:10, Rom 10:9, I Cor 3:15, Phil 1:28, I Thess 5:8-9
Continuing or Happening Now (Present Tense): 1 Cor 1:18, 1 Cor 15:2, 2 Cor 2:15
Completed Action, with results that are continuing (Perfect Tense): Eph 2:5, Eph 2:8
Completed Action (Aorist Tense): Titus 3:5, Rom 8:24, Acts 15:11, 2 Tim 1:9

That truly shows the scope of salvation...we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved.

B. W. wrote:

That pretty much sums up what I currently glean from the bible on this matter by balancing all sides of scripture together. The Greek word translated save in the bible is an interesting word to look into. I find that I can rest in him, from this, I can do his will, and when I screw up – it’s off to the woodshed… This way I learn that he loved me first and will not let me go. I find comfort in that. It is not a license to sin, it is grace as Titus 2:11-15 speaks of… By this grace is how I examine myself – proving my faith i.e. having my trust in Christ increase from faith to faith…
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That's good to hear we agree mostly. Obviously this is a hot-button issue....

I've come to believe though, that instruction/correction might be the most appropriate words to use in describing how He deals with us. I don't feel like God is ready and waiting to come down on me when I do something wrong. It's hard to describe, but I feel like it's a parent/toddler relationship to a large degree. The parent loves the child, but HATES being the one who's going to spank the child and make the child start crying. As a result, the parent does everything possible to teach the child right from wrong so the child will want to do what's right in the first place, instead of just avoiding the spanking.

I think that God deals with us the same way. He takes every opportunity to teach our hearts and be as gentle as possible. That's not to say that a spanking isn't needed for some things, but God favors compassion/mercy/instruction over fear/retribution/vengeance. That's why being born again is so important. It's not that we suddenly give God 'permission' to start punishing us for our every mistake, but rather we've let God inside to bring our hearts back to life. Then, we follow out of a sincere love. Do you feel about the same way?

By the way, I hope I didn't just start a wrath VS mercy debate...

jestes wrote:

B. W. wrote:

That pretty much sums up what I currently glean from the bible on this matter by balancing all sides of scripture together. The Greek word translated save in the bible is an interesting word to look into. I find that I can rest in him, from this, I can do his will, and when I screw up – it’s off to the woodshed… This way I learn that he loved me first and will not let me go. I find comfort in that. It is not a license to sin, it is grace as Titus 2:11-15 speaks of… By this grace is how I examine myself – proving my faith i.e. having my trust in Christ increase from faith to faith…

That's good to hear we agree mostly. Obviously this is a hot-button issue....

I've come to believe though, that instruction/correction might be the most appropriate words to use in describing how He deals with us. I don't feel like God is ready and waiting to come down on me when I do something wrong. It's hard to describe, but I feel like it's a parent/toddler relationship to a large degree. The parent loves the child, but HATES being the one who's going to spank the child and make the child start crying. As a result, the parent does everything possible to teach the child right from wrong so the child will want to do what's right in the first place, instead of just avoiding the spanking.

I think that God deals with us the same way. He takes every opportunity to teach our hearts and be as gentle as possible. That's not to say that a spanking isn't needed for some things, but God favors compassion/mercy/instruction over fear/retribution/vengeance. That's why being born again is so important. It's not that we suddenly give God 'permission' to start punishing us for our every mistake, but rather we've let God inside to bring our hearts back to life. Then, we follow out of a sincere love. Do you feel about the same way?

By the way, I hope I didn't just start a wrath VS mercy debate...

No I don't think we'll start a wrath VS mercy debate!

I think what you said here is good: "It's hard to describe, but I feel like it's a parent/toddler relationship to a large degree..."

That's kind of how I see it too and God does not toss out his toddle'sr with the bath water either!

Take a look at the other hot threads going on in this forum - Toddlers we are and drinking no less!

I am thankful he is the Good Shepherd too we sheep can stray but he goes after us and brings us back in...

Amen