Evidence for God from Science

For the record, the video itself isn't highly graphic. The images of the holocaust aren't all that bad compared to some I've seen and most of them you may have already seen in high school history. There isn't any sort of abortion images at all. Most of it is just Ray Comfort talking to people with the occasional montage of swastikas, Nazi Youth and Hitler giving a speech.

Well if that's the case I will view it tomorrow and get back to you with my thoughts.

Graphic pictures are not even shown to the participants, are they?

Not that I know of, no. My point about the pictures was that in the documentary I only see them as a method of distracting the viewer or making a purely emotional appeal as a filler for a non-argument.

Ivellious wrote:Not that I know of, no. My point about the pictures was that in the documentary I only see them as a method of distracting the viewer or making a purely emotional appeal as a filler for a non-argument.

That is like watching a holocaust movie without pictures, I mean come on seriously.
If the pictures are relevant to the subject matter I do not see a problem, maybe the problem is with conflicted emotions you have on the issue and the pictures bring forth emotions that are in contradiction with your world view.

I haven't seen the film.

I'm pro-life and I exercise what I believe the most effective thing I can do, namely my vote.

I find that in public discourse, a general principle to follow is, "Whoever appeals to Hitler and Nazi's first as a means of comparison loses." That's true to me, whether it's employed from a position that I agree with, or not.

I don't believe that most people who support "choice" in this matter are doing so for evil motives. I think most are focused upon issues that affect people who they know and can identify with and in the comparison of that to a fetus it's easier to feel an emotional connection and sense of empathy with the person who is seeking an abortion. Further, I think most women who choose to abort are doing so in situations that are difficult for them and they fear a future in which they are not equipped to care for themselves and a child.

That said, the issue really comes down to one's worldview. The general basis for examining these issues in the US today is different than what it was in the past. While I don't believe that the US was a Christian nation in the sense that many Christians try to present, I do believe that the general sense of morals and values was from the Judeo-Christian perspective which believes that there are absolutes, and values which are right and wrong regardless of how convenient they are.

Today in the US, the prevailing point of view in matters of morality is more defined by Utilitarianism which doesn't have absolutes. Situational ethics are applied and the rightness or wrongness of a decision is measured by what creates the least amount of pain or unhappiness. When those standards are applied the fetus is usually going to come out on the short side because people emotionally attach to people in situations that they can identify with and further if you can make the fetus an "it" instead of a human being, it makes the decision easier and less personal.

Part of the problem is when proponents of either pro-life or pro-choice appeal to persuade others of their position they don't take into account the values of the people whom they are trying to convince. I've come to the conclusion a long time ago that the abortion debate is better "fought" by seeking to introduce people to Christ. People who come to know Christ, are in my opinion more open on this issue to reconsidering because there is a change of mind and heart that takes place. That recognized if we're going to try to appeal on this issue to those who in general are coming from a differnt world-view we need to structure our arguments in their terms, not ours.

Making an emotional appeal from your own set of values often has the opposite effect. People no longer focus on the issue but rather the emotions that come from being challenged with values that conflict with their own.

An example of this in this instance for example, would come from the popular book Freakonomics. In that book a correlation is made between population trends before 1973 and after 1973, the time of Roe vs. Wade. The impact to what is happening today in social security is something that is not often tied to abortion policy, but the fact is that population trends in our country changed in a way that can be attributed with some validity to the change in the population growth rates and the ratio of active workers to retiree. It's not a one to one relationship of course and there's confounding factors such as immigration rates, but if people can be appealed to and convinced of the impact of a particular policy upon themselves personally, even though we'd prefer that they change their minds for the reasons we hold dear, we may be more effective examining the issue from what is effective given the change of value systems in our country.

This in no way changes my reasons for why I hold the position I do and how I use the legitimate means at my disposal to change policy. My reason are based on my belief in human life and it's value based upon my views of God and belief that human life has value because it bears the image of God. If my goal is to change a point of view to where it will change behavior, my best course of action is to see hearts changed by Christ, but in the absence of that it may be that we need to rethink our message and our expectations now that we live in an increasingly secular society.

This isn't a documentary on the holocaust. This is using the holocaust as a method of invoking emotional responses from someone while talking about something else. It's keen from the perspective of influencing the viewers emotions to get the response you want, but it's not necessary or relevant. The video is about the horrors of abortion and the end is about Ray calling people whores because they've listed over someone before. So why are there no dead babies or prostitutes pictured during those parts? It's just playing tricks on the audience, because those images in particular draw the "correct" emotions for the purposes of the video.

I can appreciate that view, Canuckster. I'm not knocking the whole pro-life side here, just how Ray Comfort uses the Holocaust as a bad analogy with no purpose but to emotionally link the holocaust and abortion. I'm only arguing that this particular method is both deceitful and distracting from the real topic. I agree that the Holocaust argument is typically a cop-out when someone runs out of good arguments for their cause. Even if I agree with the cause, it's just a tool to emotionally charge your argument regardless of its accuracy, and I prefer things like that and other forms of genocide/hate crimes to be left alone when it comes to comparisons. Unless of course its a comparison to a hate crime or genocide...

Ivellious wrote:This isn't a documentary on the holocaust. This is using the holocaust as a method of invoking emotional responses from someone while talking about something else. It's keen from the perspective of influencing the viewers emotions to get the response you want, but it's not necessary or relevant. The video is about the horrors of abortion and the end is about Ray calling people whores because they've listed over someone before. So why are there no dead babies or prostitutes pictured during those parts? It's just playing tricks on the audience, because those images in particular draw the "correct" emotions for the purposes of the video.

Oh I see, I was under the impression they were using photo's of abortions..... now I see where your coming from.
I agree that holocaust photo's are inappropriate in this situation.

My bad

I don't believe that most people who support "choice" in this matter are doing so for evil motives. I think most are focused upon issues that affect people who they know and can identify with and in the comparison of that to a fetus it's easier to feel an emotional connection and sense of empathy with the person who is seeking an abortion. Further, I think most women who choose to abort are doing so in situations that are difficult for them and they fear a future in which they are not equipped to care for themselves and a child.

This is EXACTLY why you NEED to watch the movie.

Ivellious wrote:I can appreciate that view, Canuckster. I'm not knocking the whole pro-life side here, just how Ray Comfort uses the Holocaust as a bad analogy with no purpose but to emotionally link the holocaust and abortion.

The holocaust didn't happen just because of some bad things bad people did. It happened because of things good people DIDN"T do.
The emotional link is appropriate because of how emotionally desensatized people have become regarding aboriton.

I,
You haven't answered my question. Do you have any evidence that the pictures you refer to are fake? And, have you seen the movie silent scream? It's time to put up or shut up. saying you think the pics are fake because you can't comprehend how the pictures would be taken is not evidence. The facts are that pictures are often taken to document medical procedures for teaching and for research.

Well, I can't respond back in detail obviously Jlay, but I've seen many movies or other pro-life productions similar to what I'm hearing here. So I won't go further with it here as it would be foolish for me to try to review a movie I haven't seen (... I'll leave that to the professionals ... )

In terms of the portion of my response you isolated, I hope in the whole statement I made that I am contrasting the moral values of the average person who holds the position, although clearly there are some people who proclaim themselves Christian who are also Pro-Choice and though it doesn't get as much attention, there are Pro-Life non-Christians which demonstrates my point that there are multiple grounds this issue can be debated upon.

I believe abortion is evil regardless of the motives of the persons supporting it but I don't expect people who don't share my values to see that or agree with it. The isolated portion of what you've quoted might not leave that clear, so I'll clarify here.

I believe abortion is evil regardless of the motives of the persons supporting it but I don't expect people who don't share my values to see that or agree with it. The isolated portion of what you've quoted might not leave that clear, so I'll clarify here.

That's exactly my point and why you should take 30 minutes to watch. Using the holocaust as a backdrop people who are pro-choice are questioned and challenge to think and answer. I totally agree with your statement. That most people aren't doing it for evil motives. I think most people who allowed the holocaust to happen under their noses didn't do it for evil motives. Being that they don't have some sinister desire to kill unborn babies. The doctor from silent scream said that before the ultrasound he never thought of an abortion as anything more than a procedure to evactuate a mass, no different than removing a boil or cyst. But once he saw the horror revealed through the ultrasound, guess what? He repented. So, perhaps we need to shine the ultrasound onto the truth of this matter. This movie is called 180 because Ray is able to get people to a do a 180 on their position regarding abortion by the end of the interview.

Many people don't really take the time to think why they hold a position. For example, the common objection, "I don't think a woman should be told what to do with her body." Well, neither do I. But that objection doesn't actually deal with abortion at all. The issue is one of personhood, and that it isn't what is done to the woman's body, but what is being done to a real unborn human. So, we have to be able to push the conversation beyond the talking points. IMO, that is what the interview in the video is doing.

This thread reveals a lot of the problem. Our buddy I is arguing against the validity of the pictures. Why?

Is it available online without copyright violation?

Canuckster1127 wrote:Is it available online without copyright violation?

Bart, it's on our home site.