Evidence for God from Science

Gman wrote:...Yes... Well this goes back beautifully what I was saying before. You are leaving out these unbelieving Jews to fend for themselves during the tribulation.. In other words, a SECOND holocaust for the Jews.

hmmm- isn't God on their side Gman? At least from what my bible tells me. God himself defends them - so why the need to rapture? A they are to look upon whom they what?????
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There is such a thing as messianic Jews.

wrain62 wrote:There is such a thing as messianic Jews.

Yes and they most likely will be raptured whenever it is...

But in all cases,messianic Jews and gentile believers, in the bible it comes accross as some will be taken and others left - so the goal is to be taken...

So live with your heart reaching skyward - when he comes - he comes...

B. W. wrote:

Gman wrote:...Yes... Well this goes back beautifully what I was saying before. You are leaving out these unbelieving Jews to fend for themselves during the tribulation.. In other words, a SECOND holocaust for the Jews.

hmmm- isn't God on their side Gman? At least from what my bible tells me. God himself defends them - so why the need to rapture? A they are to look upon whom they what?????
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Yes.. G-d is on the side of the Jews. But if G-d teleports the Christians up away from harm and leaves the Jews here to protect themselves down here it's not the same thing.

Gman-

What is the purpose of the 70th week of Daniel? Is it not to turn Israel back to Him? Are we under the covenant of grace now? Isn't the only way to the Father through Jesus Christ?

At some point during the 70th week, when Jesus returns, He is going to snatch up all (as in all) who have been born again. You know, those who have put their faith and trust in Jesus, who believe that He died and bodily resurrected. Those who do the will of G-d. It's not about race or ethnicity. It's about receiving Jesus and living for Him.

Who is left after the believers are snatched up? A supernaturally-protected remnant of Israel and all the ones who rejected Jesus. What happens to those two groups?

1harpazo wrote:Gman-

What is the purpose of the 70th week of Daniel? Is it not to turn Israel back to Him?

How? A hallmark card?

1harpazo wrote:Are we under the covenant of grace now? Isn't the only way to the Father through Jesus Christ?

Of course... But we've always been under the covenant of grace.

1harpazo wrote:At some point during the 70th week, when Jesus returns, He is going to snatch up all (as in all) who have been born again. You know, those who have put their faith and trust in Jesus, who believe that He died and bodily resurrected. Those who do the will of G-d. It's not about race or ethnicity. It's about receiving Jesus and living for Him.

Yes.. And leaving the Jews behind...

1harpazo wrote:Who is left after the believers are snatched up? A supernaturally-protected remnant of Israel and all the ones who rejected Jesus. What happens to those two groups?

This get's back to what I was saying earlier.. You are leaving the Jews back on earth while you float away in your couch and TV remote... How do you call this not anti-semitic?

Also where does the Bible say the Jews will be protected during the tribulation?

Gman wrote:

1harpazo wrote:
What is the purpose of the 70th week of Daniel? Is it not to turn Israel back to Him?

How? A hallmark card?

When the all the nations attack Israel and G-d defeats them, maybe just maybe Israel will turn to G-d. Who knows?

Gman wrote:

1harpazo wrote: Are we under the covenant of grace now? Isn't the only way to the Father through Jesus Christ?

Of course... But we've always been under the covenant of grace.

Since the only way to the Father is through Jesus and the Jews (generally speaking, not Messianic) reject Jesus as their Messiah how are they going to get into Heaven? As you admitted, "...we've always been under the covenant of grace," so are the Jews, unless you have knowledge of another way to the Father that is exclusive to the Jews.

Gman wrote:

1harpazo wrote:At some point during the 70th week, when Jesus returns, He is going to snatch up all (as in all) who have been born again. You know, those who have put their faith and trust in Jesus, who believe that He died and bodily resurrected. Those who do the will of G-d. It's not about race or ethnicity. It's about receiving Jesus and living for Him.

Yes.. And leaving the Jews behind...

Is exactly that. Those who reject Jesus get left behind.

Gman wrote:

1harpazo wrote:Who is left after the believers are snatched up? A supernaturally-protected remnant of Israel and all the ones who rejected Jesus. What happens to those two groups?

This get's back to what I was saying earlier.. You are leaving the Jews back on earth while you float away in your couch and TV remote... How do you call this anti-semitic?

Also where does the Bible say the Jews will be protected during the tribulation?

Actually, its a leather recliner-not a couch.

What makes you think that unbelieving Jews (or non-Jews for that matter) should be raptured? I never said that the rapture was anti-semitic-if anything, it is pro-Jesus, pro-Christian, and anti-unbeliever (if those are words).

Revelation 12 has the answer to your question:

Rev 12:1-2
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
NASU

Rev 12:5-6
And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
NASU

Rev 12:13-17
And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
NASU

1harpazo wrote: When the all the nations attack Israel and G-d defeats them, maybe just maybe Israel will turn to G-d. Who knows?

So you mean like a threat? G-d will threaten them to convert?

1harpazo wrote:Since the only way to the Father is through Jesus and the Jews (generally speaking, not Messianic) reject Jesus as their Messiah how are they going to get into Heaven? As you admitted, "...we've always been under the covenant of grace," so are the Jews, unless you have knowledge of another way to the Father that is exclusive to the Jews.

No... They will have to accept Yeshua in order to be saved. But in the OT times they could still be justified via faith Genesis 15:6.

Let me ask you a question.. How were the Jews saved in the past?

1harpazo wrote:Is exactly that. Those who reject Jesus get left behind.

Yep, that is what I've been saying all along. Jews suffer again....

1harpazo wrote:
Actually, its a leather recliner-not a couch.

What makes you think that unbelieving Jews (or non-Jews for that matter) should be raptured?

Like I said before.. I don't believe in it.. What about all the other saint's who were brutally murdered for the kingdom? Why didn't G-d magically beam them up too?

1harpazo wrote:I never said that the rapture was anti-semitic-if anything, it is pro-Jesus, pro-Christian, and anti-unbeliever (if those are words).

No my claim is that it is anti-semitic to believe in the rapture.. Not the other way around..

1harpazo wrote:Revelation 12 has the answer to your question:

Rev 12:1-2
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
NASU

Rev 12:5-6
And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
NASU

Rev 12:13-17
And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
NASU

Not sure what you mean here... Also not all prophecy is bound in Revelation either..

Gman wrote:

1harpazo wrote: When the all the nations attack Israel and G-d defeats them, maybe just maybe Israel will turn to G-d. Who knows?

So you mean like a threat? G-d will threaten them to convert?

Maybe I wasn't clear. The "them" is the nations attacking Israel. G-d defends Israel. Israel realizes that G-d delivers them, is grateful and turns to Him. Is that clearer?

Gman wrote:

1harpazo wrote:Since the only way to the Father is through Jesus and the Jews (generally speaking, not Messianic) reject Jesus as their Messiah how are they going to get into Heaven? As you admitted, "...we've always been under the covenant of grace," so are the Jews, unless you have knowledge of another way to the Father that is exclusive to the Jews.

No... They will have to accept Yeshua in order to be saved. But in the OT times they could still be justified via faith Genesis 15:6.

Let me ask you a question.. How were the Jews saved in the past?

By keeping the Law. Luke 1:5-6: "In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.(NASU).

How about the rich, young ruler? Luke 18:18-21: "A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 20 "You know the commandments, 'DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'" 21 And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth.(NASU). What was His question to Jesus? What was Jesus' reply?

Gman wrote:

1harpazo wrote:Is exactly that. Those who reject Jesus get left behind.

Yep, that is what I've been saying all along. Jews suffer again....

It's not just Jews. It's all who reject Jesus.

Gman wrote:

1harpazo wrote:
Actually, its a leather recliner-not a couch.

What makes you think that unbelieving Jews (or non-Jews for that matter) should be raptured?

Like I said before.. I don't believe in it.. What about all the other saint's who were brutally murdered for the kingdom? Why didn't G-d magically beam them up too?

You don't believe that there's going to be a rapture? What does 1 Cor. 15:51-52 and 1 Thes. 4:13-18 say to you?

Gman wrote:

1harpazo wrote:I never said that the rapture was anti-semitic-if anything, it is pro-Jesus, pro-Christian, and anti-unbeliever (if those are words).

No my claim is that it is anti-semitic to believe in the rapture.. Not the other way around..

The apostle Paul wrote 1Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians which teaches the rapture is going to happen. He was a Jew. How can believing in the rapture be anti-semitic?

Gman wrote:

1harpazo wrote:Revelation 12 has the answer to your question:

Rev 12:1-2
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
NASU

Rev 12:5-6
And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
NASU

Rev 12:13-17
And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
NASU

Not sure what you mean here... Also not all prophecy is bound in Revelation either..

You asked, "Also where does the Bible say the Jews will be protected during the tribulation?"

1harpazo wrote:
Maybe I wasn't clear. The "them" is the nations attacking Israel. G-d defends Israel. Israel realizes that G-d delivers them, is grateful and turns to Him. Is that clearer?

No you are still getting transported to your couch in the sky while the Jews are left to confront their enemies.

Gman wrote:
By keeping the Law. Luke 1:5-6: "In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.(NASU).

How about the rich, young ruler? Luke 18:18-21: "A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 20 "You know the commandments, 'DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'" 21 And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth.(NASU). What was His question to Jesus? What was Jesus' reply?

No.. Jews where saved in the past by grace just like how it is done today. Romans 4:1-12

1harpazo wrote:
It's not just Jews. It's all who reject Jesus.

Same thing..

1harpazo wrote:You don't believe that there's going to be a rapture? What does 1 Cor. 15:51-52 and 1 Thes. 4:13-18 say to you?

That G-d will save us but not by magically beaming us into a cloud..

1harpazo wrote:The apostle Paul wrote 1Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians which teaches the rapture is going to happen. He was a Jew. How can believing in the rapture be anti-semitic?

Becuase he doesn't teach the rapture.

1harpazo wrote:You asked, "Also where does the Bible say the Jews will be protected during the tribulation?"

Oh G-d protects, but that doesn't mean however He takes us away from facing our problems either...

Depends upon how are you defining Jews. If by Jew you mean, a citizen having an Israeli passport then I do not think it is the same definition that the scriptures carry.

Gman, are you against rapture?

Gman wrote:

1harpazo wrote:
Maybe I wasn't clear. The "them" is the nations attacking Israel. G-d defends Israel. Israel realizes that G-d delivers them, is grateful and turns to Him. Is that clearer?

No you are still getting transported to your couch in the sky while the Jews are left to confront their enemies.

No, no...to my cloud, you know, cloud, not couch! Where in the Bible does it say that they confront their enemies?

Gman wrote:
By keeping the Law. Luke 1:5-6: "In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.(NASU).

How about the rich, young ruler? Luke 18:18-21: "A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 20 "You know the commandments, 'DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'" 21 And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth.(NASU). What was His question to Jesus? What was Jesus' reply?

No.. Jews where saved in the past by grace just like how it is done today. Romans 4:1-12

Really? Luke was wrong in chapter 1 verse 6? Jesus was wrong to tell the ruler to keep the commandments to earn eternal life? Because Abraham believed G-d, it was reckoned to HIM as righteousness. Then came Moses and the Ten Commandments. The Law was still in effect when Jesus was alive, hence Zack and Liz were RIGHTEOUS by keeping the whole law and Jesus told the ruler that he could obtain eternal life if he kept the whole law. Paul wrote Romans under the NEW Covenant of grace. Remember?

1harpazo wrote:
It's not just Jews. It's all who reject Jesus.

Same thing..

As what?

1harpazo wrote:You don't believe that there's going to be a rapture? What does 1 Cor. 15:51-52 and 1 Thes. 4:13-18 say to you?

That G-d will save us but not by magically beaming us into a cloud..

Maybe not beaming us, but more like SNATCHING us.

1harpazo wrote:The apostle Paul wrote 1Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians which teaches the rapture is going to happen. He was a Jew. How can believing in the rapture be anti-semitic?

Becuase he doesn't teach the rapture.

Okay, we'll just disagree what "caught up" really means.

1harpazo wrote:You asked, "Also where does the Bible say the Jews will be protected during the tribulation?"

Oh G-d protects, but that doesn't mean however He takes us away from facing our problems either...

I didn't say that we're not going face problems. On the contrary, we're going to be in the midst of the worst tribulation mankind has ever experienced. Jesus is going to snatch us (believers) out of this world just a nano second before He pours out His wrath, vengeance, judgment on all who rejected Him.

neo-x wrote:Depends upon how are you defining Jews. If by Jew you mean, a citizen having an Israeli passport then I do not think it is the same definition that the scriptures carry.

Gman, are you against rapture?

I think it is unwise to believe in..

1harpazo wrote: No, no...to my cloud, you know, cloud, not couch! Where in the Bible does it say that they confront their enemies?

All of G-d's prophets faced gruesome deaths.. Including G-d himself. Frankly I don't see how you can get around this.

Really? Luke was wrong in chapter 1 verse 6? Jesus was wrong to tell the ruler to keep the commandments to earn eternal life? Because Abraham believed G-d, it was reckoned to HIM as righteousness. Then came Moses and the Ten Commandments. The Law was still in effect when Jesus was alive, hence Zack and Liz were RIGHTEOUS by keeping the whole law and Jesus told the ruler that he could obtain eternal life if he kept the whole law. Paul wrote Romans under the NEW Covenant of grace. Remember?

Actually the New covenant never replaced the law... The law is still there for us to do, but only what applies Rom. 2:13. But it doesn't justify us, it's there to sanctify us.

So.. Speaking of law, do you stop your car at stop signs? Same thing.

Maybe not beaming us, but more like SNATCHING us.

Same thing...

I didn't say that we're not going face problems. On the contrary, we're going to be in the midst of the worst tribulation mankind has ever experienced. Jesus is going to snatch us (believers) out of this world just a nano second before He pours out His wrath, vengeance, judgment on all who rejected Him.

Ok.. And what happened to those Jews in the Exodus when G-d poured out the plagues out on the Egyptians? Why didn't G-d snatch them up too?

Gman,
What does this verse say is going to happen?

1 Thess. 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

If you admit that we leave the surface of this planet, then you believe in the Rapture. You may not hold to certain interpretations of the Rapture, but it is clearly taught in the Bible and was taught by the early church.