Evidence for God from Science

wrain62 wrote:Ron Paul can gain on.

Paul is simply an anti-Israel wacko. I have faith that the Republicans will flush him eventually, but I'm sorry that anti-Jewish sentiment has grown so far as to make Ron Paul a ''serious'' contender.

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

wrain62 wrote:Ron Paul can gain on.

Paul is simply an anti-Israel wacko. I have faith that the Republicans will flush him eventually, but I'm sorry that anti-Jewish sentiment has grown so far as to make Ron Paul a ''serious'' contender.

FL

Amen.. FL

I think that Christians hopefully are awaking up to that fact.

Ron Paul believes that Foregn aid takes money away from taxpayers and gives it to the wealthy of other countries. You guys can contend that it does help with defense and it has. But I feel that involvement in the Middle East has gone out of control and leads to a lot of blowback. Is presence in Iraq and Afghanistan doing much against a global terrorist problem? How would you guys feel if China had bases and control here and sometimes would bomb our citizens in the name of fighting terrorism? Military bases and armies are not doing much to fight terrorism and actually causes unrest in the people which makes the Middle East an even worse breeding ground for resentment against America. It is no wonder that the soldiers fighting have weak morale and Heavily support Ron Paul(more money from army donated to him than all of the other rep. candidates X2 and even more than the money raised for Obama); it is because it is hard to justify it. All the bases around the world and our presence in countries is spreading us thin like it has been done to empires throughout history(and what happens to every empire?).

Prime Minister BENJAMIN NETANYAHU addresses congress:

"We stand together to defend democracy. We stand together to advance peace. We stand together to fight terrorism.

Congratulations, America. Congratulations, Mr. President. You got bin Laden. Good riddance.

In an unstable Middle East, Israel is the one anchor of stability. In a region of shifting alliances, Israel is America’s unwavering ally. Israel has always been pro-American. Israel will always be pro-American.

My friends, you don’t have to -- you don’t need to do nation- building in Israel. We’re already built.

You don’t need to export democracy to Israel. We’ve already got it.

And you don’t need to send American troops to Israel. We defend ourselves." *emphasis added


Look up the transcript yourselves. Is war with Iran really meant to be inevitable? What some Muslim countries want is control over the country of Israel but the ability of Isreal to defend themselves is strong as the Prime Minister has mentioned. If you think that Muslim countries are going to nuke Isreal you may forget that it is not in their intrest since it would kill off more palestinians, it would destroy their holy land, and the perpetrators will face serious consequences from around the world and even Iran is not going to be that stupid. If you think that America itself is in danger then Ron Paul's policy of sending troops everywhere home will actually be a boon to the defense of our homeland and his policy would also us protect against our crumbling of our country due to economic over extension. If we treat some of these countries with more respect the Muslim people in the Middle East would not be as inclined to have resentment towards us and it would also undermine the cause of Islamic extremism which has its main goal as preventing Western Influence to the Middle East.
I know you guys are going to be calling me deluded/naive/out-of-touch-with-reality I cannot stand it when we imply that warmongering is the more Christian way for our government to act or when we say amen to calling a man of integrity "wacko".

I can't comment on Paul's views toward the Jewish faith, but I agree with him on the point of eliminating our foreign aid to Israel. We continue to give money to them, one of the wealthiest countries in the world, and in the process make enemies with every other country in the Middle East because Israel parades around like they are superior to everyone else in the area. Israel likes to play the "poor, persecuted people" card way too much, especially considering they openly persecute everyone else.

While I don't agree with everything Paul stands for, I give him credit for honestly speaking his views and thoughts and I have to credit him with much of the foresight he has had economically. It helps that the rest of the Republican party (both still in and formerly in the race) is loaded with idiots and tools.

We don't have to worry about - or root for - Ron Paul because he seems to be out of the race. I'm conservative in many respects and liked some of his ideas but his stand on Israel and his economic protectionism brand him as a wacko. A wacko can have integrity, but a wacko never makes a good presidential candidate.

This is bizarre:

wrain62 wrote:If we treat some of these countries with more respect the Muslim people in the Middle East would not be as inclined to have resentment towards us and it would also undermine the cause of Islamic extremism which has its main goal as preventing Western Influence to the Middle East.

When Israel pulled its settlements out of the Gaza Strip in 2005, the Government expected peace to ensue. What happened? More rocket attacks than ever! there are daily rocket attacks into southern Israel launched from Gaza. And now, the Israeli government wants to curb the growth of new settlements in Judea & Samaria (the ''West Bank'') and how are the Palestinians answering to this? With more attacks, assassinations and mayhem.

I wouldn't say you are naive; I think you just assume that Muslims in the Middle East think the same way that we in the West think. Unfortunately, recent history shows that the Palestinian Authority - and most Muslim countries in the MidEast - speak out of both sides of their mouth. They answer peace overtures with antisemitic rhetoric and more violence.

Read this:

Ivellious wrote:I can't comment on Paul's views toward the Jewish faith, but I agree with him on the point of eliminating our foreign aid to Israel. We continue to give money to them, one of the wealthiest countries in the world, and in the process make enemies with every other country in the Middle East because Israel parades around like they are superior to everyone else in the area. Israel likes to play the "poor, persecuted people" card way too much, especially considering they openly persecute everyone else.

Do you see the antisemitism? If someone intelligent & educated like Ivellious can have such ludicrous perception, what hope is there for Muslim children in the MidEast who are raised to think that the Jews are evil, stole their land and are the descendants of monkeys & pigs?

FL

Ivellious wrote:I can't comment on Paul's views toward the Jewish faith, but I agree with him on the point of eliminating our foreign aid to Israel. We continue to give money to them, one of the wealthiest countries in the world, and in the process make enemies with every other country in the Middle East because Israel parades around like they are superior to everyone else in the area.

Sounds like you are on the side of the rich Arab oil companies whose only mission is to use oil as bargaining chips to destroy Israel. Also do you even realize how big Israel actually is? There are only 5.5 million Jews living there compared to the billions of Arabs whose only wish is to blow Israel off the map.

If Israel didn't flex their muscles every once in awhile, there would be many who would love to destroy it as the Koran instructs them to.

Ivellious wrote:Israel likes to play the "poor, persecuted people" card way too much, especially considering they openly persecute everyone else.

You mean what's left of the Jews... Jews have always been persecuted because of their faith. The holocaust, the inquisition, etc... Have you been living under a rock? There are only about 13,296,100 Jews on this planet about one in about 457 people in the world is Jewish compared to the billions of Christians and Muslims. In other words hardly any are left and they have been around since the beginning of time. There should have been billions of them since Judaism is WAY older than both Christianity and Islam combined. What does that tell you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population

Also where are you getting this logic that they persecute everyone else?

Ivellious wrote:While I don't agree with everything Paul stands for, I give him credit for honestly speaking his views and thoughts and I have to credit him with much of the foresight he has had economically. It helps that the rest of the Republican party (both still in and formerly in the race) is loaded with idiots and tools.

Idiots huh? I'm trying to find any logic in your rants... So far nothing..

wrain62 wrote: Look up the transcript yourselves. Is war with Iran really meant to be inevitable? What some Muslim countries want is control over the country of Israel but the ability of Isreal to defend themselves is strong as the Prime Minister has mentioned. If you think that Muslim countries are going to nuke Isreal you may forget that it is not in their intrest since it would kill off more palestinians, it would destroy their holy land, and the perpetrators will face serious consequences from around the world and even Iran is not going to be that stupid. If you think that America itself is in danger then Ron Paul's policy of sending troops everywhere home will actually be a boon to the defense of our homeland and his policy would also us protect against our crumbling of our country due to economic over extension. If we treat some of these countries with more respect the Muslim people in the Middle East would not be as inclined to have resentment towards us and it would also undermine the cause of Islamic extremism which has its main goal as preventing Western Influence to the Middle East.
I know you guys are going to be calling me deluded/naive/out-of-touch-with-reality I cannot stand it when we imply that warmongering is the more Christian way for our government to act or when we say amen to calling a man of integrity "wacko".

Study the Koran wrain... Buy a copy today and read it.... There will be no peace until Islam get's control of Israel. It will NEVER stop until it reaches it's objective. That is world domination.

It appears I've been a tad misunderstood here.

I'm not antisemitic. I understand that over the course of history, Jews have been the target of many religion-based attacks. Bit Israel was given to the Jews after the Holocaust by the UN without any concern for the people living in that area already, and since then Israel has considered itself superior to everyone, on the basis of past persecution. That would be like if black people in the United States demanded to have the right to lynch white people because it happened to them in the past.

And to be perfectly clear, I absolutely despise the other people in the Middle East too, at least the ones who bastardize their own religion to justify their hate and power-struggle. Some Muslims have interpreted the Quran as saying it is ok to fight the infidels because they stole the Holy Land from them. I think they are just as bad as the Christians who ordered and carried out the Crusades. They are taking their religion out of context and tricking the youth of their countries into thinking it is a just cause. As far as I see it, both the powerful people in Israel and all the other nations around them are evil and don't deserve any aid from us.

Israel, in my opinion, is as corrupt as Saudi Arabia or Iran. They just don't get called out for it. They can bomb the hell out of Muslims because it's their right to take out the centuries of anger on them. hey live the high life while their Muslim neighbors starve, and you wonder why there might be some animosity toward them? Look, just as I've been told here numerous times, taking items of a holy text out of context can be disastrous. I'm no expert on Islam, but I've read parts that explain the killing of anyone who wrongfully steals your land is acceptable. Of course, I don't agree with that (nor do I agree with much of the faith). But extremists take that out of perspective and use it to justify the attacks on Israel and the US, who did just that.

No, I do not side with big oil companies in the Middle East. I want us out of the Middle East unconditionally. I stand to think that we've done nothing but fuel the hate and animosity toward Israel in the Middle East with our involvement there. Which makes sense...It's fairly easy to grow up hating someone when they murder civilians left and right in the name of peace and defending the precious resources you own.

And as far as the other republican candidates:
Rick Perry...unimaginably stupid bigot, tool, just being used to appeal to Christian fundamentalists.
Michelle Bachman...pseudo-Sarah Palin (fun upper-US accent, Christian fundamentalist), isn't very bright, bigot.
Newt Gingrich...hypocrite, liar, weak political career.
Herman Cain...tool, the stereotypical "outspoken" candidate, completely out of it with the affair over his head.
Mitt romney...To this point, no major complaints.
Rick Santorum...flip-flops on financial issues, inconsistancy in political views.

Ivellious wrote:It appears I've been a tad misunderstood here. I'm not antisemitic.

Sorry, but you are. And the rest of your post goes on to show it. I'm not faulting you for this as it is entirely to be expected from someone who does not know God.

As for the Crusades and the Crusaders, they had control of the Holy Land for a mere 88 years. Here is a timeline acceptable for a secular person such as yourself:

70CE: Jewish Temple destroyed
135CE: Jews dispersed & banned from Judea. Judea renamed Palestine.
135-614CE: Byzantine rule in Palestine.
614-629CE: Persian rule in Palestine.
629-638CE: Byzantines recapture Palestine.
638-1099CE: Muslim rule of Palestine. (461 years)
1099-1087CE: Crusader rule of Palestine.
1087-1250CE: free-for-all, mayhem.
1250-1516CE: Muslims regain control. (266 years)
1517-1917CE: Ottoman cum Turk control of Palestine.
1917-1948CE: British Mandate.
1948CE: birth of the modern State of Israel.

Muslims have milked Crusader ruthlessness admirably but the truth is, Muslims were far more brutal than the Crusaders. And Muslims butchered far more people.

FL

OK, seriously, how is "I don't think the US government should ship money and weapons to one of the wealthiest nations in the world" mean I hate Jewish people? A much better description would be "Just as I don't like the leaders of the Muslim world, I don't like the selfish leaders of Israel." Tell me, what is the Godly purpose of lining the pockets of a handful of politicians in Israel? How does that help the people living in the ghettos of Israel? How is that helping to end the chaos in the Middle East? How does that make the free world safer and more prosperous?

Ivellious wrote:It appears I've been a tad misunderstood here.

I'm not antisemitic. I understand that over the course of history, Jews have been the target of many religion-based attacks. Bit Israel was given to the Jews after the Holocaust by the UN without any concern for the people living in that area already, and since then Israel has considered itself superior to everyone, on the basis of past persecution. That would be like if black people in the United States demanded to have the right to lynch white people because it happened to them in the past.

Wow.. That is an ignorant remark. The land of Israel has always been and forever will be the land of the Jews G-d's chosen people. There has ALWAYS been a population of Jews living in Israel for at least 4 thousand years. In fact many of the Jews were kicked out of the Ottoman Empire back into the land to escape persecution after WWI.

Much of that is spoken here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_3A6_qSBBQ

Ivellious wrote:And to be perfectly clear, I absolutely despise the other people in the Middle East too, at least the ones who bastardize their own religion to justify their hate and power-struggle. Some Muslims have interpreted the Quran as saying it is ok to fight the infidels because they stole the Holy Land from them.

Have you ever read the Koran? Jerusalem is never mentioned in it.

Ivellious wrote:I think they are just as bad as the Christians who ordered and carried out the Crusades. They are taking their religion out of context and tricking the youth of their countries into thinking it is a just cause. As far as I see it, both the powerful people in Israel and all the other nations around them are evil and don't deserve any aid from us.

The crusades was actually a response to the Muslim hordes that invaded Europe between 1095 and 1291. A far as Israel being powerful they did that all on brain power... And in 60 years. We support Israel because they provide stability to that area. Otherwise areas like Saudi Arabia would be targets.

Ivellious wrote:Israel, in my opinion, is as corrupt as Saudi Arabia or Iran. They just don't get called out for it.

Unfortunately the claim is false... Israel not only provides much needed jobs to that area to both Jews AND Arabs, but they are also cultivating the land to restore it back to it's natural condition.

Ivellious wrote:They can bomb the hell out of Muslims because it's their right to take out the centuries of anger on them. hey live the high life while their Muslim neighbors starve, and you wonder why there might be some animosity toward them? Look, just as I've been told here numerous times, taking items of a holy text out of context can be disastrous. I'm no expert on Islam, but I've read parts that explain the killing of anyone who wrongfully steals your land is acceptable. Of course, I don't agree with that (nor do I agree with much of the faith). But extremists take that out of perspective and use it to justify the attacks on Israel and the US, who did just that.

Israel like any other country has the right to defend herself. Israel is one of the most contested and persecuted lands on this planet. Even the UN wishes to dissolve it. Israel is completely surrounded by countries who would love to blow it out the water.. It has to protect herself... And sometimes regrettably that involves weapons.

Ivellious wrote:No, I do not side with big oil companies in the Middle East. I want us out of the Middle East unconditionally. I stand to think that we've done nothing but fuel the hate and animosity toward Israel in the Middle East with our involvement there. Which makes sense...It's fairly easy to grow up hating someone when they murder civilians left and right in the name of peace and defending the precious resources you own.

You call Israelis murders? Then you are an anti-Semitic... You have no proof of that claim..

Ivellious wrote:And as far as the other republican candidates:
Rick Perry...unimaginably stupid bigot, tool, just being used to appeal to Christian fundamentalists.
Michelle Bachman...pseudo-Sarah Palin (fun upper-US accent, Christian fundamentalist), isn't very bright, bigot.
Newt Gingrich...hypocrite, liar, weak political career.
Herman Cain...tool, the stereotypical "outspoken" candidate, completely out of it with the affair over his head.
Mitt romney...To this point, no major complaints.
Rick Santorum...flip-flops on financial issues, inconsistancy in political views.

I use to vote democrat and was an Obama supporter.. I can say the exact same thing about many in the democratic parties too. They can be uneducated bigots too..

Ivellious wrote:OK, seriously, how is "I don't think the US government should ship money and weapons to one of the wealthiest nations in the world" mean I hate Jewish people? A much better description would be "Just as I don't like the leaders of the Muslim world, I don't like the selfish leaders of Israel." Tell me, what is the Godly purpose of lining the pockets of a handful of politicians in Israel? How does that help the people living in the ghettos of Israel? How is that helping to end the chaos in the Middle East? How does that make the free world safer and more prosperous?

Israel get's much less from the US than you think, the surrounding Arabs actually get more than Israel... In fact, much of why America invests in Israel is for it's ingenuity.

If you are referring to us buying oil from the Middle East, then yes, I agree with you. And it's sad. But we have handed enormous amounts of money over to Israel since WWII out of goodwill and to help them build a strong foundation for the future. It has more or less worked, until recently when Israel has taken a ego trip on everyone else in the area and has stopped helping its own people. I just think it's time to make them use that wealth for their own people and to try to make peace with everyone else instead of hate and war.

In a perfect world, I'd say screw buying oil from Saudi Arabia too...but unfortunately our economy and infrastructure is too dependent on oil, and the oil companies have bought our politicians to keep the oil money flowing.

Ivellious wrote:If you are referring to us buying oil from the Middle East, then yes, I agree with you. And it's sad. But we have handed enormous amounts of money over to Israel since WWII out of goodwill and to help them build a strong foundation for the future. It has more or less worked, until recently when Israel has taken a ego trip on everyone else in the area and has stopped helping its own people. I just think it's time to make them use that wealth for their own people and to try to make peace with everyone else instead of hate and war.

Well Israel, although not perfect, still needs to protect itself. They are trying to create a peaceful country but it is also scared of those who wish to blow it sky high. Thus much in defense..

Ivellious wrote:In a perfect world, I'd say screw buying oil from Saudi Arabia too...but unfortunately our economy and infrastructure is too dependent on oil, and the oil companies have bought our politicians to keep the oil money flowing.

Yes agreed there... We need to get off oil consumption. It will kill us..

Israel definitly has right to sovereignty and to defend itself. Ron Paul is not against this, instead he is against foregn aid and too much foreign military involvement. And I think that the Prime Minister of Israel's position on US aid proves that he is not anti Israel actually.

"We stand together to defend democracy. We stand together to advance peace. We stand together to fight terrorism.

Congratulations, America. Congratulations, Mr. President. You got bin Laden. Good riddance.

In an unstable Middle East, Israel is the one anchor of stability. In a region of shifting alliances, Israel is America’s unwavering ally. Israel has always been pro-American. Israel will always be pro-American.

My friends, you don’t have to -- you don’t need to do nation- building in Israel. We’re already built.

You don’t need to export democracy to Israel. We’ve already got it.

And you don’t need to send American troops to Israel. We defend ourselves."

Arming Israel with weapons is nation building.

*Edit 24/1/2012:
I saw the rest of the speech and I have to say that it is true that the Prime Minister wants the US to use its strength against Iran and thus he is not really a Ron Paul supporter.