Evidence for God from Science

The strength to stand in such situations should be born in the spirit, not the will. I have no doubt that some through their own will can do such things. Perhaps even me. But I'd like to think I'm smart enough not to boast about it. I pray that if faced with such a situation that God would be glorified and he would give me the words to speak. So, what we say we think we will say when there is no gun at our head is really meaningless.

Plenty of people die for causes. Soldiers die for causes. Muslims die for causes. Imagine the resolve it takes to be a suicide bomber. Not bragging on them, it's deplorable. But you still have to be amazed at the convicton. The Bible says, if I boast let me boast in the Lord. Paul had this down. He had such a transformed perspective that he truly considered his own life worth nothing, compared with his task of preaching the gospel.

What you are proposing is a shifting borderline between hypocrisy and true faith. The history of Church shows how believers were tortured and murdered because of their faith in Christ and because they chose to hold to it. Even Christ said that because of his name people will persecute his followers.

The history remembers the martyrs. It doesn't remember those who under persecution fled or hid themselves. And we know that many did.

My point is, if you love Christ more than everything, then you be honest about it. If you do not love Christ more than everything, again, just be honest about it. But You can't say I love Christ with all my heart and soul and then back out of your faith too. Doesn't add up. That's the hypocrisy. I'm not putting a legal stamp over what you said, but I in all honesty I see this scenario as more of a shifting goal post.

I'm a hypocrite. I'm a hypocrite every time I knowingly sin. Every time I sin in just the tiniest degree, I am denying who I am in Christ. And thus since I act contrary to what I know and believe, I am a hypocrite. It doesn't take a gun being pointed at my head to make me a hypocrite, nor any other believer who is honest at the heart level. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) I pray that each day I am being conformed to the image of Christ, but I certainly know when I am not. And that happens every day. How about you?

My point is, if you love Christ more than everything, then you be honest about it. If you do not love Christ more than everything, again, just be honest about it. But You can't say I love Christ with all my heart and soul and then back out of your faith too. Doesn't add up. That's the hypocrisy. I'm not putting a legal stamp over what you said, but I in all honesty I see this scenario as more of a shifting goal post.

I'm a hypocrite. I'm a hypocrite every time I knowingly sin. Every time I sin in just the tiniest degree, I am denying who I am in Christ. And thus since I act contrary to what I know and believe, I am a hypocrite. It doesn't take a gun being pointed at my head to make me a hypocrite, nor any other believer who is honest at the heart level. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) I pray that each day I am being conformed to the image of Christ, but I certainly know when I am not. And that happens every day. How about you?

I think we should all pray, no one's boasting here J, if you didn't notice. There is no need for the "I am a hypocrite" sermon. Nothing wrong with being honest about your feelings, God's love is above that.

I think there are very good replies here. To add my 2 cents...

Denying God to save ourselves, I don't see the point. Things are just temporary here anyway, so you're just delaying the inevitable. Why bother dealing with the guilt you would probably have thereafter thinking about the issue?

On the other hand, throw the lives of others into the situation, say your children or even just other people. Self-sacrificing ones soul for others, what could be a higher self sacrifice and as such demonstrate a higher love for others than that? Surely, God would not turn a blind eye to such a noble action -- that is, verbally denying Him (without denying Him in your heart), sacrificing yourself to save others as He Himself did. God's big enough. Just depends on your motives.

Kurieuo wrote:I think there are very good replies here. To add my 2 cents...

Denying God to save ourselves, I don't see the point. Things are just temporary here anyway, so you're just delaying the inevitable. Why bother dealing with the guilt you would probably have thereafter thinking about the issue?

On the other hand, throw the lives of others into the situation, say your children or even just other people. Self-sacrificing ones soul for others, what could be a higher self sacrifice and as such demonstrate a higher love for others than that? Surely, God would not turn a blind eye to such a noble action -- that is, verbally denying Him (without denying Him in your heart), sacrificing yourself to save others as He Himself did. God's big enough. Just depends on your motives.

These are exactly my thoughts on the matter

Kurieuo wrote:I think there are very good replies here. To add my 2 cents...

Denying God to save ourselves, I don't see the point. Things are just temporary here anyway, so you're just delaying the inevitable. Why bother dealing with the guilt you would probably have thereafter thinking about the issue?

On the other hand, throw the lives of others into the situation, say your children or even just other people. Self-sacrificing ones soul for others, what could be a higher self sacrifice and as such demonstrate a higher love for others than that? Surely, God would not turn a blind eye to such a noble action -- that is, verbally denying Him (without denying Him in your heart), sacrificing yourself to save others as He Himself did. God's big enough. Just depends on your motives.

Yeah that was my main point I guess.

If and when that which Revelations describes comes to pass, I'm thinking of family and friends here. I would like to be around to do what I can.

As Canuckster said, if it was down to me personally I think I would hold to my faith and "go down fighting", but it's more about the other people in your life and sticking around for them.

Denying christ verbally is not a sin atall as long as you dont mean it in your heart whether it is to save your life or others. We are saved by accepting christ in our hearts and likewise we can ONLY lose salvation by turning away from him in our hearts. I think PRIDE/EGO is the main cause to make people foolishly believe (and teach others the same) that we lose salvation simply over meaningless words. If this scenario is in an islamic country then assuming they offered to let you go free as soon as you deny him then as soon as the person threatening your life or your wifes etc lets you go (assuming they did)....you can either run away to a safe country or go back to witnessing whether that be openly (probably suicidal and dumb and thus a SIN in itself) or secretly witness....point is, you haven't denied him...you are still with him in your heart and still obeying the commandment to "confess" him to others....just not in a stupid suicidal fashion but more wisely

Plus it seems many cruel "christians" who believe you should not deny him "verbally" (pretending) are in reality telling people that whoever says the opposite (like some ive seen comment here including myself), are going to hell simply because their intellect has let them down (assuming it was wrong) and they have thus misunderstood the scriptures. Since when is salvation about INTELLECT? All one has to do to goto heaven is accept christ as lord and saviour and repent and thus TRY to follow his commandmanets as best they can accoding to their best effort of understanding the scriptures which is not allways easy hence this topic right now. By saying people are going to hell for "outwardly" denying christ to achieve a greater good (saving a life) is ADDING to the conditions of salvation and saying we need INTELLECT or "tough luck"

Rather to deny Christ in words and keep Him in Our Heart than to keep him in words and deny him in our hearts.

Stu wrote:This question stems from the How Close are the End Times page. In particular this paragraph:

If you are a Christian, you should be prepared to suffer tribulation because of your faith in Jesus Christ.3 Resolving beforehand what you will do will help strengthen you for the time when you are confronted with your belief in Christ. If you are not prepared, you will do the expedient thing - deny Christ to "save" your life.4 Denying Christ may seem like the best thing to do when you are threatened with death. However, although such a denial may save your mortal life temporarily,5 it will ultimately result in the loss of your eternal life through Christ.6

My question / statement is this: surely this is not right?

Yes you are lying, but only to save your life. In your heart you are no different, you accept that Jesus died for your sins, and only through Him will you come to the Father. As a once off scenario surely this "acceptable"!

Now under circumstances that require you to continually deny Christ, and so this most likely might include your actions (to fit in) as well, I can understand. But to save your life in a precarious situation, surely you won't lose your place in heaven as a result?

In the last days, the saved will be filled with The Holy Spirit. You will not be afraid of the antichrist, the antichrist will be afraid of you. Me I would be honored to die for Jesus being my Lord. There could know better way to inter eternity.

Lets us never forget the words of Christ and God:
I require Mercy, not sacrifice.

To me it is nothing to do with fear but simple logic and doing what is right. What is more right in this hypothetical scenario?....saying some silly meaningless words and saving a life (yours or someone elses)? or not saying silly words and letting a woman be brutally raped and/or murdered?. I think Jesus would want us to "pretend" as to do otherwise is to cause more evil and is in effect aiding and abetting a murderer if you want to go deep into it.
The fact some people think it is fear at the root of such decisions (it "may" be for some and so what), this shows "their" reasons for their stance n this subject is rooted in pride/ego which has clouded the judgement. Fear doesnt enter the equation when you think really deep into it because at the end of the day a christian is still risking their life even if they deny him "verbally" because they are still risking their life by obeying his commandments in secret and witnessing in secret etc and thus the risk is still there, the pride/ego isnt. How far do you think people would have gotten in nazi germany if they admitted they were jews to the gestapo lol....alot more would have been killed im sure, if they followed the "lemming" ideology of misguided christians of today. To admit something when there is no need is the same as suicide.
Dont forget Jehu in the 2nd book of kings...he pretended to be a worshipper of baal to trick those who worshipped that god and god knew he didnt mean it in his heart when he was pretending to be a worshipper of baal...infact God was happy with him and said Jehu had done "what is right" in his eyes and thus blessed him for it.
As for the end times scenario....well there wont be any silly questions to ask us if we deny him etc with words...the question will be "will you take the mark or die"....well this one is simple because god lays it out easily and tells us straigh forward that we should not take it ....if he had commented on "verbal" denial to save a life in the same way then we would know the answer to that too, but he doesnt "directly" address it BUT the Jehu scenario i believe is pretty much answering us that we can pretend is there is a better outcome by doing so.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 10:33 KJV
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven

Mandelduke, that scripture of "whoever denies me before men etc means nothing. It doesnt say it means "verbally"....it could be interpreted "any way you want" such as meaning do not deny him to others...(witnessing)....do not deny him "in your heart" (leaving the faith) and so on....plus it "contradicts" what ive said is also in the bible regarding jehu etc so yo. Lets say you were right and it does mean even verbally without the heart....if you are sayin someone is going to hell simply because they interpret it differently or indeed have never read that scripture is to ADD to salvation conditions and say salvation is by intellect. That is my point.
You have also raised the do not fear what men can do to the body etc....i agree, but fear doesnt have to even be involved which is what i said above. Don't fear what they can do sure, but also don't treat your body like its trash and worthless also which is what we would do if we refuse to deny him verbally to save someones life....our bodies are gifts and should not be engaging in suicidal frenzies which is mostly rooted in pride (a sin) throughout history by so called martyrs.
If the people who say it is wrong to even pretend and verbally deny.....do you seriously think you would not deny him if tortured long enough or in the right way? Of course you would EVERYONE breaks, everyone would do virtually anything the torturer said when it comes down to it if tortured long enough and to say otherwise would be to show you have never really been in dangerous situations and do not have much experience in life and as most christians probably have had a sheltered life for the most part.....ask SAS or Navy seals guys who have been tortured once captured...they are the toughest type of guys and they have said on record that they did anythin the torturer wanted including eat faeces just to save their life and also they said whatever they were made to do, it wasnt their heart and just said if they ever met the guys who made them do such things on the streets, they would kill them. Joan of arc also said that even if the church managed to make her deny she was a follower (and thus a witch), it would only be with her lips, not her heart.

mandelduke wrote:Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 10:33 KJV
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven

Are you suggesting that Jesus denied Peter?

I don't have any issues in MY suffering for My Lord and God, none whatsoever.
I do however have MANY issues with my children or loved ones.
I was once asked if I would deny my Lord to save my child or my wife and I thought long and hard ( knowing that my wife would NOT want me to deny Christ for Her but that my children are innocent of such things) and heard that passage I quote before " I require mercy not sacrifice"
Life is sacred and to give up a life or take a life when we have the ability to save it, that is wrong.
AN example is the JW's "blood ban", in which blood transfusion are not allowed and people, even children, are allowed to die "for Jehovah".
To them, to take in blood is to deny Jehovah.