Evidence for God from Science

Byblos wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Byblos wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:We really are free from the law thanks to Christ. That is, we are not righteous nor do we attain righteousness based upon our keeping the law, but rather through Christ.

But how? (this might get dicey so hold on to your straps).

Maybe I'm just playing dense to give myself some space after posting in the divine simplicity thread. But I'm not entirely sure I know what you mean... how what?

You rightly said that we attain righteousness through Christ and my question is what does that exactly entail?

What the Law could not do, because of our weakness, Christ did by nailing our sins to the cross. Therefore whatever we do in the flesh, no longer matters soteriologically. And the Law no longer applies to us who are saved in Christ, because God is interested more in our hearts which is more important to God than our failings in our flesh. The Law fulfills its purpose in condemning us, and revealing us to be at enmity with God, but Christ is greater and has set us free. The new law, New Convenant, is a circumcision of the heart between us personally and Christ. No longer can Satan accuse us before God, for we have attained Christ's righteousness via faith.

So you're with me this far... but what does receiving Christ's righteousness entail? The way I see it, we are cloaked in Christ's righteousness. God sees us through Christ and as such is able to accept us as righteous (thus placating His righteous judgement). God no longer judges or condemns us for what we do, but rather is able to accept and love us. This then melts away at who we are and transforms us from within into naturally desiring and wanting to be more inline with God's character. While sanctified, sanctification is also an ongoing process until we die. Rather than call it santification, since we are very much already set apart in Christ as holy, I would prefer to call it our being refined.

However, whereas some Christians will focus of what is sin and what is not, and trying to keep to the very letter of the Law. I believe we are better to just give that part of us over the Christ, for it is no longer master over us. Instead our focus should be on our master Christ Himself, and through this focus we will become naturally changed and conformed to His image.

Did I answer your question?

Kurieuo wrote: We must diverge as to what the NIV translators intended in their translating this verse, as reading it on its own would be wrong, but within the full context of the chapter perhaps not.

In the instance you provide the CJB seems to better capture Paul's words, even if it does change the words somewhat. However, better is the KJV or NASB which reads:

Romans 10:4 (NASB): For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Romans 10:4 (KJV): For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

What this appeals to which the CJB tends to leave out, is that the law no longer applies to those who believe. Confer with any version of Romans 7:4.

Yes, this was what I was taught too.. But there seems to be a discrepancy even if we are going to consider other translations. Many of the translations don't even state that it's a termination of the law. Take the newer NIV translation as an example.

Romans 10:4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Regarding Romans 7:4, it doesn't say that the law is dead, rather it seems to be stating that his sinlife died to the laws.

Kurieuo wrote:We really are free from the law thanks to Christ. That is, we are not righteous nor do we attain rightousness based upon our keeping the law, but rather through Christ.

No one can be justified through the law, but that doesn't mean we throw the law under the bus either. Consider 1 Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 9:21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

While we can say that Christ "fulfilled" the law, it doesn't mean that he terminated the law either Matthew 5:17. We simply learn from Christ on how to apply the law, not destroy it. And for the record, we only can do the parts that apply to us. Many of the 613 laws were made for priests or temple service. Some were for women, some for men, so obviously we can't do the whole thing.

Would any of us want to live in a lawless world? I would think not...

jlay wrote:G,
i understand the objection. however, I don't think that this translation was the result of Torah bashing. many popular translations use differnt words such as consumation, culmanation and fulfillment.

In fact i don't think the context of Romans 10 is addressing whether the OT law is still applicable, but addressing Israel's rejection of salvation in contrast to the Gentiles receiving it. I think Galatians is the book that Paul uses to address this Law issue in more specifics. The error is that I think some are applying what is in Galatians to what is said in Romans 10:4. so, in the context of Romans 10:4 I do not think Paul's focus is that the Law is done away with, but that Messiah is the fulfillment of the law. However, i think Paul does address elsewhere that the OT Law is not to be applied to Gentile believers in any form or fashion.

Ok, then let's see what Galatians says about it...

jlay wrote:You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. Gal. 5:4

No.. No one can be justified by G-d's laws or any law for that matter.. As an example stop signs on the road. We all break them from time to time, but that doesn't mean that we eliminate them either. If we didn't have them we would be dead. What we are talking about here is turning the law into legalism. That was something that it was never intended to do.

What Galatians 5:4 seems to be implying here is perverting the law into legalism in order to justify oneself. This is rather apparent a few chapters back in Galatians 2:16.

I would say that the NT is rather ambiguous as to what we should be following in the OT, but it is rather apparent that Christ nor Paul ever intended to destroy the law either or replace it.

1 Timothy 1:5 KKJV, "Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith..."

Mark 12:28 29, 30, 31, "Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, "Which is the first commandment of all?" 29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'HEAR, O ISRAEL, THE LORD OUR GOD, THE LORD IS ONE. 30 AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these." NKJV

Gal 3:23-24, "But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." NKJV

Rom 3:19-10. "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." NKJV

Please note - hate and disdain was shown toward God - Jesus Christ within the 24 hours before Jesus died on that cross. What is sin - what causes us to miss the mark? The law exposed sin, our dislike of God and how we twist things, well, simply put, to get away with doing what we do in effect to escape consequences and justify ourselves in the process.

The Law was to remind us of God’s love, that he would heal the breach by his own act symbolized in Gen 3:15, and Gen3:21 NKJV

Notice the phrase tunic of skin used in the NKJV and note later 1 Co 15:38, 42, 49 (please read the context of this whole chapter). The law came afterward’s thru Moses to expose sin – how we twist the things belonging to God to our own ends and purposes, even the law, so that we do not need God at all, only law.

That is one sure sign of hate toward God and demonstrates a total lack of love toward God. If one Loved God – they would have faith in him. The OT Law was out tutor to bring us to Christ and faith worketh by love.

We twist law – legalism into form, words, rituals, that we can manipulate to our own end. In doing so, this also shows what fallen man would do (and does) with the principles of God’s love. For this to be dealt with effectively it must first be exposed. The Cross does just that. That is why the cross is the end of this law so that we can now learn to love God and each other.

Read the following

1 John 4:9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.

1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 John 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
1 John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.

1 John 4:13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
1 John 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
1 John 4:17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

1 John 4:19 We love Him because He first loved us.

1 John 4:20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?
1 John 4:21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also. NKJV
What does it say?

So Gman and everyone, including myself - this is our first lesson about the Law, its purpose and goal - bring us back into loving faith toward the Lord of Glory and each other! But oh how we all squirm at the thought of this! Legalism is easier, love cannot be faked. It takes faith to love...

Romans 3:28 NKJV, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."
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B. W. wrote:
So Gman and everyone, including myself - this is our first lesson about the Law, its purpose and goal - bring us back into loving faith toward the Lord of Glory and each other! But oh how we all squirm at the thought of this! Legalism is easier, love cannot be faked. It takes faith to love...

Romans 3:28 NKJV, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."
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True we can love, love, love, till we are blue in the face, but apart from the law we really don't even know what love really means. It can become ambiguous. Therefore we will need to recalibrate ourselves under "the law" or teachings in order to know what G-d's love truly means..

Please read.

Exodus 23:1 “Do not spread false reports. Do not help a guilty person by being a malicious witness.

Leviticus 19:13 ‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor. “‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired worker overnight

Leviticus 19:11 “‘Do not steal. “‘Do not lie. “‘Do not deceive one another.

Leviticus 19:14 ‘Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD.

Deuteronomy 24:14 "Do not take advantage of a hired worker who is poor and needy, whether that worker is a fellow Israelite or a foreigner residing in one of your towns.

Leviticus 25:17 Do not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 22:21 “Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt.

Leviticus 19:18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

Leviticus 19:34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 20:14 “You shall not commit adultery.

Leviticus 19:16 “‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people. “‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD.

Leviticus 19:3 ‘Each of you must respect your mother and father, and you must observe my Sabbaths. I am the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 16:19 Do not pervert justice or show partiality. Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the innocent.


I don't know about you guys... But I WANT to live under these laws....

Me first!!! Put me under this...

B. W. wrote: We twist law – legalism into form, words, rituals, that we can manipulate to our own end. In doing so, this also shows what fallen man would do (and does) with the principles of God’s love. For this to be dealt with effectively it must first be exposed. The Cross does just that. That is why the cross is the end of this law so that we can now learn to love God and each other.

And put me under all the Jewish festivals and rituals too... Becuase they magnify CHRIST. I don't care if you call it legalism or sliced bread...

I WANT this. And Him.... Now!

Reasons to celebrate the festivals..

Leviticus 23:1-2
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘These are my appointed festivals, the appointed festivals of the LORD, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies.

1 Corinthians 5:7-8
7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival (Passover), not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Luke 22:13-14
13 They left and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover. 14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table.

Luke 22:19-20
19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the (Seder) cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Acts 2:1-3
1 When the day of Pentecost (Feast of weeks) came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.

And Jesus said,

Matthew 22:35-40, “Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" 37 Jesus said to him, 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." NKJV

ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS...

The law was sent to teach what the morality of love is as well as define it for those who lost it. If one really loved God, themselves, and their neighbors, then there is no problem keeping the below verses cited by Gman…

Exodus 23:1, Leviticus 19:13, Leviticus 19:11, Leviticus 19:14, Deuteronomy 24:14, Leviticus 25:17, Exodus 22:21, Leviticus 19:18, Leviticus 19:34, Exodus 20:14, Leviticus 19:16, Leviticus 19:3, Deuteronomy 16:19

Without love, keeping these can turn into legalism whereas one attempts to manipulate God by their forced actions to keep the letter of the law while neglecting the weightier matters of the law just as it was written in Luke 11:42 and Matthew 23:23.

The Holy Spirit resides within a believer and thus begins conforming us into the shape of love as defined in Galatians 5:22, 23 which no legalistic law can do, due to the weakness of human flesh.

The question is not about keeping festivals or not keeping them but rather do you love God, your neighbor, and yourself? I personally wished all Christians would keep the Passover with Christ represented in the Seder meal and hiding the Broken bread for three days for the children to find on the third day. The symbolism is a profound testament of the love of God (We learn to Love him because he first loved us – gave himself to us).

However, without that focus of love, any festival becomes a mere work to be enjoyed like Christmas time or despised as one their respective countries main tax day. So Gman, I hope you are not discounting the love of God and its importance in exchange for the joys of legalism. The law was designed to teach what love (agape) is, how it acts, and what it does toward God, neighbors, and ourselves.

What Jesus stated in Matthew 22:35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40c, is true and is also what the Apostles letters all testify of too. If one loved, they would not condemn another for eating pork, or keeping the Sabbath on a particular day, or not contend about new moons and festivals in a manner that tries to prove that they alone love God more by their deeds than others who do not do as they do. One-upmanship is more deceitful to one’s own heart than anything. (Romans 14:1-23, Col 2:16, 17c) so we all need to take heed to ourselves

2 Corinthians 13:5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 14c states what?
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Gal 5:6 NKJV
Gal 5:13 NKJV
Gal 5:14 NKJV

B. W. wrote:.

The question is not about keeping festivals or not keeping them but rather do you love God, your neighbor, and yourself? I personally wished all Christians would keep the Passover with Christ represented in the Seder meal and hiding the Broken bread for three days for the children to find on the third day. The symbolism is a profound testament of the love of God (We learn to Love him because he first loved us – gave himself to us).

However, without that focus of love, any festival becomes a mere work to be enjoyed like Christmas time or despised as one their respective countries main tax day. So Gman, I hope you are not discounting the love of God and its importance in exchange for the joys of legalism. The law was designed to teach what love (agape) is, how it acts, and what it does toward God, neighbors, and ourselves.

What Jesus stated in Matthew 22:35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40c, is true and is also what the Apostles letters all testify of too. If one loved, they would not condemn another for eating pork, or keeping the Sabbath on a particular day, or not contend about new moons and festivals in a manner that tries to prove that they alone love God more by their deeds than others who do not do as they do. One-upmanship is more deceitful to one’s own heart than anything. (Romans 14:1-23, Col 2:16, 17c) so we all need to take heed to ourselves

2 Corinthians 13:5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 14c states what?
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Gal 5:6 NKJV
Gal 5:13 NKJV
Gal 5:14 NKJV

Yes Bryan I understand that "love" is the key here, but the term is still ambiguous as to what exactly it means.. Love can have a completely different meaning to someone else therefore we will still need it decoded. Also Christ says that if we truly love Him we will keep His commandments.

John 15:10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Therefore Christ's commandments in the Torah are not legalism they are there for our spiritual walk. But yes we can turn them into legalism very quickly to try and justify ourselves by them or bang them over the heads of others. Pray that we don't...

These verses in Galations 5 therefore are more talking about legalism and how to "apply" the laws under Christ, but not throwing them under the bus either. This is what I'm starting to see now..

Thanks.

Hey Gman,

Apply this phrase: The Ten Love Commandments to the Ten Commandments and one may just begin to see how God was defining the morality of agape type love – what it means and what one does who finds and understands it.

We are not used too this concept as it, well, exposes, sin of not loving. Guess it is easier to get lost in modern thinking about agape than live it. This should bring us to Christ Jesus and the inward work of the Holy Spirit so we become transformed into who and what God designed for us to be and act. We learn here on this earth and in the next, enter fully in into the kingdom of his dear Son’s love…

Take a look again at the verses you cited as well as when you re-read the 10 C’s think of them as defining the morality and actions of one who Love God, Neighbor, and self correctly. Think on it a bit...

We just might get into Objective Morality topic because God defines what Agape Love is, how it acts, behaves, and does by applying a defining morality to agape type love that is clearly defined. Only God loves perfectly, people, only can love imperfectly, but as believers in the Messiah Jesus we can learn to love more perfectly than we did the day before. If we stumble, it is the 1 John 1:9 way.

Read this again: John 15:10, "If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love"

Is it not what is being pointed out here?
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B. W. wrote:
Read this again: John 15:10, "If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love"

Is it not what is being pointed out here?
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I would say that we still need to know and follow God's commandments if we truly want to live in His grace. But not to justify oneself...

Gman wrote:

B. W. wrote:
Read this again: John 15:10, "If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love"

Is it not what is being pointed out here?
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I would say that we still need to know and follow God's commandments if we truly what to live in His grace. But not to justify oneself...

Then amen and how does one do that if they do not love God first?

Be Blest Gman!
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Gman wrote:

cheezerrox wrote:
I've looked into the Complete Jewish Bible, and I think I would like it, but the only thing is that I want something with commentary, and for in depth study. I'm not necessarily looking just for a new translation, but also for comments and notes on the content. I've been thinking about getting the Jewish New Testament and the separate commentary that're both made by the same people.

Yes, one of the best pioneers for the Messianic movement would be David Stern. He's got a great commentary on the New Testament you can find on Amazon. Other great teachers are Dan Juster who has some fabulous teachings too.

cheezerrox wrote:Is there anything in particular that you like about that Chumash and that study Tanakh you give links to? They seem really interesting and good, but I'm just wondering if there's specific things you like about them. I do already have a study Torah, by Richard Elliot Friedman. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but I like it.

I'm not familiar with him I'm afraid. There are so many different viewpoints from the Messianic movement, much like an explosion. If you would like, I could give you some pointers on the ones I feel drawn to.

About the Chumash, which means 5 in Hebrew or the first 5 books of Moses. It provides commentaries from the Talmud, Midrash and Rabbi's such as Rashi and Rambam. Keep in mind when you study this stuff is learn how to apply the Biblical or Levitical traditions instead of the Rabbitical ones. The Rabbitical commentaries are fun to study however also for our learning and history as well. That is why I study it...

cheezerrox wrote:And also, what are some particulars you like about the the Complete Jewish Bible?

My personal belief is that it is one of the best translations out there. For most translations of the NT you will find what I call a lot of Torah bashing.. Let me give you an example from the NIV.

Romans 10:4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Now the Complete Jewish Bible.

Romans 10:4 For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts.

Very different... Messianic Judaism seeks for Christians to return to their Hebraic roots and learn how to apply Torah from a New Testament or Messianic perspective. In other words, to learn how to walk the Torah we go to the New Testament to understand how to apply it in our daily lives. Not to stop Torah however.. Augment it.

I plan on getting the Jewish New Testament and its commentary, it looks really interesting and informative. I'm interested on a Messianic perspective on a lot of Hebrews and specific statements in the New Testament that I still have questions about regarding their views. And plus I just find Messianic insights into the New Testament very rich and informative. I'll have to look into Dan Juster, also, I haven't heard of him.

Also, the guy, Richard Elliot Friedman, who did the translation/commentary I mentioend I own is actually a Reform Jew. I would love finding a Messianic commentary on the Torah, though.

I would love to hear your pointers as to what views and teachers you feel drawn to, also. I'm relatively new to these teachings and feel very attracted to them, as I've always felt that the Hebrew/Jewish element of Christianity is almost entirely ignored anymore, and Messianic views on Scripture seem very convincing to me.

I was lent a book by an author named Tim Hegg, called The Letter-Writer. It's a Messianic perspective on Paul's background and letters. It's very interesting, and I'm liking it a lot. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, or of the author.

Another thing, there's a book I found online that I feel like I want to get, called From Moses to the Messiah: Messianic Jewish Hebrew Insights on the Five Books of Moses by an author named Ben David. I've never heard of it or him before, and I can't find one thing about it anywhere else on the internet.



Looking at its back cover seems to convey that it's about finding codes and secrets in numbers and letters in the Torah, which I tend to be suspicious of. But the title sounds very appealing to me. I figured it would be worth asking if you know anything about it, as I'm kind of conflicted on whether I should get it or not.

cheezerrox wrote: I plan on getting the Jewish New Testament and its commentary, it looks really interesting and informative. I'm interested on a Messianic perspective on a lot of Hebrews and specific statements in the New Testament that I still have questions about regarding their views. And plus I just find Messianic insights into the New Testament very rich and informative. I'll have to look into Dan Juster, also, I haven't heard of him.

Yes, you will find different Messianic congregations doing different things for sure. Some more into the Hebraic Roots all the way up to certain Jewish customs and rituals, others more laid back, others more of a Hollywood approach (like Perry Stone).

A little bit on Dan Juster with his "Messianic Theology in 15 Minutes" that you may like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH8xi_dz6hI

As for other New Testament studies, you might enjoy the "Tree of Life Bible: The New Covenant" Bible.

cheezerrox wrote:Also, the guy, Richard Elliot Friedman, who did the translation/commentary I mentioend I own is actually a Reform Jew. I would love finding a Messianic commentary on the Torah, though.

I would love to hear your pointers as to what views and teachers you feel drawn to, also. I'm relatively new to these teachings and feel very attracted to them, as I've always felt that the Hebrew/Jewish element of Christianity is almost entirely ignored anymore, and Messianic views on Scripture seem very convincing to me.

It is certainly a fascinating journey for sure. At least for me anyways.. I had no idea that this stuff was in the Bible. It caught me completely off guard. One studies that I would recommend comes from the "First Fruits of Zion." Here is their web site.

https://ffoz.com/

I'm talking the HaYesod Program (foundation class) from them right now. You can see a little about it here. I'm also learning a little Hebrew on the side too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=105QIAP6 ... 46C63836F2

cheezerrox wrote:I was lent a book by an author named Tim Hegg, called The Letter-Writer. It's a Messianic perspective on Paul's background and letters. It's very interesting, and I'm liking it a lot. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, or of the author.

Another thing, there's a book I found online that I feel like I want to get, called From Moses to the Messiah: Messianic Jewish Hebrew Insights on the Five Books of Moses by an author named Ben David. I've never heard of it or him before, and I can't find one thing about it anywhere else on the internet.

I'm not familiar with him either I'm afraid..

cheezerrox wrote:Looking at its back cover seems to convey that it's about finding codes and secrets in numbers and letters in the Torah, which I tend to be suspicious of. But the title sounds very appealing to me. I figured it would be worth asking if you know anything about it, as I'm kind of conflicted on whether I should get it or not.

I'm not too crazy on the Bible codes.. I do like bouncing around on the Sod or spiritual levels of scripture however. You mean Gematria? Yes, and the Hebrew letters also speak to us in their word pictures too.

I think the important things to remember when you are studying this stuff is that we need to remember that we won't be judged on our creeds but our deeds..

I've written a little about Hebrew word pictures here..

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=36144

B. W. wrote:
Then amen and how does one do that if they do not love God first?

Be Blest Gman!
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Thanks Bryan.. I think instead of believing I must obey God in order to be saved (legalism), it should probably be I must obey because I am saved. And without love we are nothing..