Evidence for God from Science

Canuckster1127 wrote:Seems to me it's better to take the stated facts and reasons in Scripture at face value when they're available and not try to overthink or rationalize by inference more than is presented.

It's also OK to say, I don't know. I have an opinion. But in the end it's not something I have to worry about because God has it all in hand and I'll know when the time comes.

I sometimes think God must smile as he listens to us speculate about so many of these future things. I bet for him it's like hearing from the back seat every minute or so. "Are we there yet? Are we there yet?"

But the resurrection of the dead is a most basic orthodox Christian belief, it's not something trivial. Is it a matter of salvation? Well I don't know but Paul certainly seemed to think so since he equated not believing in the resurrection of the dead with us remaining dead in our sins. I'm wondering seveneyes, how do you interpret such scriptures?

Canuckster1127 wrote:Seems to me it's better to take the stated facts and reasons in Scripture at face value when they're available and not try to overthink or rationalize by inference more than is presented.

It's also OK to say, I don't know. I have an opinion. But in the end it's not something I have to worry about because God has it all in hand and I'll know when the time comes.

I sometimes think God must smile as he listens to us speculate about so many of these future things. I bet for him it's like hearing from the back seat every minute or so. "Are we there yet? Are we there yet?"

I agree, well said, but I do think that there is some merit to discussing doctrinal issues. Paul wrote about them in order to keep the new churches from being deceived. I think that anytime there are opposing doctrines in the church that they should be discussed at least to the point that a consensus be reached even if that consensus be to stick to the foundation of the Gospel with new believers and to continue study with honest intention to learn and embrace the truth. I think that there are many opposing doctrines within the church today and that means only one thing. That many of our brothers are being deceived with false doctrines. That is a problem for all of us.

Byblos wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:Seems to me it's better to take the stated facts and reasons in Scripture at face value when they're available and not try to overthink or rationalize by inference more than is presented.

It's also OK to say, I don't know. I have an opinion. But in the end it's not something I have to worry about because God has it all in hand and I'll know when the time comes.

I sometimes think God must smile as he listens to us speculate about so many of these future things. I bet for him it's like hearing from the back seat every minute or so. "Are we there yet? Are we there yet?"

But the resurrection of the dead is a most basic orthodox Christian belief, it's not something trivial. Is it a matter of salvation? Well I don't know but Paul certainly seemed to think so since he equated not believing in the resurrection of the dead with us remaining dead in our sins. I'm wondering seveneyes, how do you interpret such scriptures?

I agree with Paul, but if you read Corinthians he is speaking about Christs resurrection. That if Christ wasn't resurrected then Christianity is false.(12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain."

Then goes on to say that in the final resurrection that we would be raised a spiritual body. This is precisely what I am proclaiming as well. Christs physical resurrection was so that we could see and believe unto eternal life, but the resurrection on the last day is completely different and for different purposes.

seveneyes wrote:

Byblos wrote:I'm wondering seveneyes, how do you interpret such scriptures?

I agree with Paul, but if you read Corinthians he is speaking about Christs resurrection. That if Christ wasn't resurrected then Christianity is false.(12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain."

Then goes on to say that in the final resurrection that we would be raised a spiritual body. This is precisely what I am proclaiming as well. Christs physical resurrection was so that we could see and believe unto eternal life, but the resurrection on the last day is completely different and for different purposes.

Paul was a Pharisee who did believe in the bodily resurrection of the dead. Contrast what he says against what the Sadducees believed and it is evident Paul is speaking of a general resurrection, not just that of Christ's.

The resurrection of the dead was specifically taught by Christ in John 5:28-29; 6:39-40; 11:25; Luke 14:14. He also defended it against the Sadducees in Matthew 22:29 and Luke 20:37. Paul also mentioned it in Acts 17:18, 31, 32. In this last one, there's no question that the audience understood perfectly that Paul was referring to the general resurrection. He repeats it over and over again here Romans 8:11 (will also give life to your mortal bodies); 1 Corinthians 6:14; 15:12; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 5:1; Philippians 3:21; 1 Thessalonians 4:12-16; 2 Timothy 2:11; Hebrews 6:2). I don't think these passages and others can be interpreted as referring to anything but a general, physical resurrection in incorruptible bodies.

Byblos, you have perfectly expressed my point. Those passages do in fact speak of the spiritual resurrection on the last day according to what Paul wrote in Corinthians and to what Christ promises us in his kingdom (which is not of this world). In Matthew 22 Jesus was telling the Sadducees that they were mistaken entirely for they do not know the power of God, that we would be like the Angels at the resurrection. We will have the same "bodies" as the Angels have. We will be spiritual bodies like the Angels. Philippians 3 states that our humble bodies will be transformed into the body of his Glory. The first passage you posted in John be careful that you are not missing what Jesus is telling the people. He is NOT saying that the dead will climb out of the ground in mass. If he was saying this it would conflict with the rest of scripture. He is speaking figuratively about the collection of Gods people who we will see coming from the sky, not from the ground.

Now I will ask you. If we are to be raised a physical perfected body here on Earth, what happens to us when the earth is destroyed and the elements melt in the heat as Peter tells us? Use scripture and not conjecture or personal feelings to answer please. And in your answer please show how the verse in Thessalonians that says that we will rise into the air meeting the rest of the holy ones and "FOREVER be with the Lord in this way" is reconciled to an Earth that is marked for destruction as well as reconciling Pauls statement of fact that at the resurrection, what is sewn a natural body is raised a spiritual body.

If you can actually do that solely with specific scriptures without putting your own feelings or beliefs, or conjecture of scriptures in with your answer. Hats off, but it is not possible, and with every scripture you reference I will have 3 others to show a spiritual inheritance, so be ready, for you are debating with not only one who knows scripture but an eyewitness to the Glorified spiritual bodies that I speak of. I speak with authority as an eyewitness, not as someone indoctrinated by man.

seveneyes wrote:Byblos, you have perfectly expressed my point. Those passages do in fact speak of the spiritual resurrection on the last day according to what Paul wrote in Corinthians and to what Christ promises us in his kingdom (which is not of this world). In Matthew 22 Jesus was telling the Sadducees that they were mistaken entirely for they do not know the power of God, that we would be like the Angels at the resurrection. We will have the same "bodies" as the Angels have. We will be spiritual bodies like the Angels. Philippians 3 states that our humble bodies will be transformed into the body of his Glory. The first passage you posted in John be careful that you are not missing what Jesus is telling the people. He is NOT saying that the dead will climb out of the ground in mass. If he was saying this it would conflict with the rest of scripture. He is speaking figuratively about the collection of Gods people who we will see coming from the sky, not from the ground.

Now I will ask you. If we are to be raised a physical perfected body here on Earth, what happens to us when the earth is destroyed and the elements melt in the heat as Peter tells us? Use scripture and not conjecture or personal feelings to answer please. And in your answer please show how the verse in Thessalonians that says that we will rise into the air meeting the rest of the holy ones and "FOREVER be with the Lord in this way" is reconciled to an Earth that is marked for destruction as well as reconciling Pauls statement of fact that at the resurrection, what is sewn a natural body is raised a spiritual body.

If you can actually do that solely with specific scriptures without putting your own feelings or beliefs, or conjecture of scriptures in with your answer. Hats off, but it is not possible, and with every scripture you reference I will have 3 others to show a spiritual inheritance, so be ready, for you are debating with not only one who knows scripture but an eyewitness to the Glorified spiritual bodies that I speak of. I speak with authority as an eyewitness, not as someone indoctrinated by man.

With any kind of discussion like this it will always come down to a matter of interpretation. We could go through the exercise of quoting scriptures back and forth at one another but in the end I will say it means this and you will say no, it means that. I am quite respectful of private revelations as I've known others who've had them so I have no reason to doubt your eyewitness testimony. Nothing personal though, I simply prefer to side with 2,000 years of church history on the subject and if one reads the writings of the early church fathers, the overwhelming majority understood and taught a physical general resurrection.

Byblos. No single eyewitness of such things written in the bible ever announced a last day physical resurrection, ever. The teachings over 2,000 years that you speak of came through men who by their carnal logic created a doctrine that did not fit with the scripture. They did the same thing with the world being flat even when psalms spoke of the earth being a circle, or a sphere. The Jews did it concerning the Messiah, thinking that he would be the physical king of Israel even though the prophecies spoke of his kingdom having no end. It could have been understood that his kingdom was a spiritual kingdom but it was not. The carnal minds of men do not arrive at truth outside of Gods direct speaking/revelation. That is why God continues to work powerfully among us to this day so that eyewitnesses are always here among us in order to preserve and teach the church at large about the Gospel of Christ. The things I say ALL agree with every other witness recorded in the bible. The things you are speaking of all agree with those who claim a doctrine and have NEVER made ANY claim of eye witnessing anything along the lines. My testimony about me should remain not withstanding in favor of the testimonies of those written. I use Christ, Paul, John and Peter as my witnesses and as the authority to what I speak. Please do more research and refrain from announcing anything besides scripture quotations on this matter, especially to new believers and seekers of God, for the last day physical resurrection goes directly against mans existential yearnings hopes and innate knowledge and will confuse them who seek rest for their souls. Let the scripture do the work. I urge all who are not eye witnesses of the heavenly spiritual body to refrain from announcing any doctrine on the matter. Just quote scripture for you have no authority to teach about this whatsoever.

I know this sounds harsh and I understand that discussions of this sort are necessary, but anytime you get a doctrine that actually conflicts with the scripture as a last day physical resurrection does, teaching that doctrine over what scripture actually quotes is going to confuse and create divisions among the church and among seekers. How can I express enough what Paul (an eyewitness) spoke to the Corinthians concerning this? "What is sown a natural body is raised a spiritual body." Nothing in the bible conflicts with this anywhere. Only mans current teaching DOES conflict with it. Conjecture is just that, conjecture and needs to be acknowledged as such and NOT taught as doctrine.

Let this be rest for your soul: The doctrine of physical resurrection on the last day that does NOT sit well in your heart because it goes against all of your deepest hopes about life and life after death is in fact NOT the case. The case is that "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"-- and in Hebrews 22:

18 For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19 and athe sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20 For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” 21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” 27 This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

Look, it says "TO THE SPIRITS OF THE RIGHTEOUS MADE PERFECT" this is our promise and this is the rest of our souls. Take it in love and thanksgiving to God. It is FAR superior to mans doctrine of a last day physical resurrection and it is a free gift.

Firstly, I don't believe it is one's faith in the resurrection that saved, but rather we hope in Christ's.

Really didn't expect this to be a touchy subject, but it obviously is.

Originally, I took your position seveneyes. Then it became on of those issues I was forced to closely examine Scripture on. I just could not believe in a physical resurrection. But the outcome of my investigate I had to admit it seems Scripture does point to a physical resurrection for humanity. Which kind of makes sense in a way, if one reflects upon our identify which is intricately tied to physical nature. No doubt, when it comes to your eschatology, you are probably also amillenial? Since the other positions are quite carnal and anthropmorphic.

That said, my current position is a compromise, a middle ground if you will. While I came to believe what I saw in Scripture as a physical resurrection being implied, it was also clear to me our bodies will be very different from before - possessing spiritual qualities. You agreed that the angels took on physical form at times, so what does this mean? It means their bodies can actualise in spiritual or physical form.

Now many liberal theologians only believe in a spiritual resurrection of Christ. Personally, if the resurrection was spiritual, then I have much less hope as it sounds more like hogwash to me. God's power isn't demonstrated if it is only spiritual. Furthermore, the physical penalty Christ endured for us (physical death), Christ was not justified if one accepts God simply raised Him through some sort of spiritual resurrection. Likewise, why should it be different when it comes to us?

A physical resurrection also symbolises God's power. Yet, anyone who denies that our bodies are qualitatively different in regards to the spirtual, I believe they are also in error. So while a physical resurrection may be spoken of, the final outcome is ultimately one of a much grander spiritual nature.

As a sub-thought... we must be careful I think not to become like the gnostics in thinking only the spiritual if good. God did create a good creation. While it may not be perfect due to sin and its finiteness there is still much good. Subconsciously, I must admit, I detested the thought of a phyiscal resurrection as it was not entirely spiritual. But when I examined Scripture, I was forced into a middle ground.

Regarding whether God sets up a millenial kingdom here on Earth, which I'm just guessing might play are part in your very strong stance here... I beg to differ being amillenial myself. But that is a different area of theology. If one embraced a physical resurrection it does not necessitate one embraces a physical kingdom being setup on earth.

Byblos wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:Seems to me it's better to take the stated facts and reasons in Scripture at face value when they're available and not try to overthink or rationalize by inference more than is presented.

It's also OK to say, I don't know. I have an opinion. But in the end it's not something I have to worry about because God has it all in hand and I'll know when the time comes.

I sometimes think God must smile as he listens to us speculate about so many of these future things. I bet for him it's like hearing from the back seat every minute or so. "Are we there yet? Are we there yet?"

But the resurrection of the dead is a most basic orthodox Christian belief, it's not something trivial. Is it a matter of salvation? Well I don't know but Paul certainly seemed to think so since he equated not believing in the resurrection of the dead with us remaining dead in our sins. I'm wondering seveneyes, how do you interpret such scriptures?

Byblos, I understand what you're saying. Of couse I recognize the resurrection of Christ and our promised resurrection for which Christ is the first fruits as a lynchpin foundation to our faith and our great hope. What I was addressing is that that is not compromised necessarily by recognizing that such details such as "what was the exact physical nature of Jesus' resurrection body and what does that forbode for us" is to some extent speculation and that level of detail doesn't in my estimation add anything to our salvation or our knowledge although certainly it can be something of interest to reflect upon. Maybe it's just me but it seems the older I get the less I find myself caught up on systematic theology, inferential logic to answer questions that scripture doesn't directly answer and the more I see such activity as somewhat similar to the scholasticism of the middle ages from which I drew the classic example of "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin."

I was not in any way seeking to diminish the resurrection or it as a primary theme in scripture or in following Christ with that great hope intect.

Kurieuo

Angels appearing in physical form does not actually mean that they are in physical form. It can only infer that they appeared as physical for we know that first and foremost they are spiritual beings. To create a doctrine from this is a stretch born from assumption. -Just saying

Also, a physical resurrection on this earth must reconcile the fact that this earth and the current heavens are set for destruction. The resurrection is forever with Christ. In fact, every single time the Bible uses the term forever it is invoking the spiritual realm period. There is only one instance in the old testament where poetically a verse says that the earth endures forever, but that was Davids song and is not to be used as a literal doctrine. I think people get freaked out when they think of spiritual bodies and cannot reconcile what that must be in reality other than disembodiment which is not the case. We will be like unto the Angels. Not disembodied spirits, but Glorified and perfect.

Do not compromise man, hold onto the promise of God!

seveneyes wrote:Kurieuo

Angels appearing in physical form does not actually mean that they are in physical form. It can only infer that they appeared as physical for we know that first and foremost they are spiritual beings. To create a doctrine from this is a stretch born from assumption. -Just saying

Also, a physical resurrection on this earth must reconcile the fact that this earth and the current heavens are set for destruction. The resurrection is forever with Christ. In fact, every single time the Bible uses the term forever it is invoking the spiritual realm period. There is only one instance in the old testament where poetically a verse says that the earth endures forever, but that was Davids song and is not to be used as a literal doctrine. I think people get freaked out when they think of spiritual bodies and cannot reconcile what that must be in reality other than disembodiment which is not the case. We will be like unto the Angels. Not disembodied spirits, but Glorified and perfect.

Do not compromise man, hold onto the promise of God!

It does not mean they are in physical form, but likewise neither does their spiritual form. Rather it suggests their natural form is neither physical nor spiritual, but that they can exist in either. We too are spiritual beings, as is Christ who was also divine. However, we currently exist in physical form. I just think those who try to argue one way or the other are not really looking at the full picture ontologically.

Re: physical resurrection on this earth, this would be adding to my words. However, when Christ returns we are all raised (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). I then believe the heavens and earth will pass away.

While you might not personally believe the following, would you nonetheless find it acceptable: As Christ was risen physically so too we will be, and as Christ is now spiritually so too we will be. (notwithstanding of course that Christ is divine and we are not)

Again, it is a stretch to say that Angels are neither physical or spiritual. We know that they are spiritual beings. As far as them appearing as physical, we can only say that they can appear as physical, but existing as physical would be a different story. We have only heard of angels appearing as physical men for short periods of time. I dont think that inferring anything from this as to create a doctrine out of it is appropriate.

and, because Christ rose physically does not mean that we will to, nor does the bible infer or teach that. Christ had his physical resurrection in a large part so that he could be a testimony to men as to his divinity and power as well as validation to his claims toward salvation. At the last day resurrection there is no more need to testify to men concerning our salvation, and we ourselves are not called to the same duties as Jesus was as is written in the prophets concerning him and the subsequent fulfillment of those prophecies. He is the way, the truth and the life and we are the recipients of salvation. The bible clearly says that; "And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly." This is saying that we will not bear the likeness of Jesus's resurrected physical body, but his ascended body. The body of heaven.

So yes, as Thessalonians says, we will be raised and forever be with the lord in this way. And then in peter: The earth will be destroyed and we look to a new heaven and new earth, the home of righteousness.

As to the gates of the new Jerusalem: "Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:" Angels and the Glorified souls of the righteous will be together in this new heaven and new earth. -It very much sounds to me like one place. New Heaven and Earth mixed into one dwelling, or existence.-

In my understanding, a physical resurrection believer thinks that we will have spiritual mixed with physical bodies. Almost as if we would have some qualities of both. This is an attempt to reconcile scripture with mans doctrine of physical resurrection. Spirit and flesh DO NOT mix in that way. The flesh gives way to spirit. Corruption to incorruptibility. The two are mutually exclusive. You are either alive in your spirit, or alive in your flesh. The consciousness does not occupy both joined together within the same strand of experience. You can be both at the same time, but not in the same time. The two are involved in completely different activities and consciousness apart from one another.