Evidence for God from Science

I believe God loves homosexuals every bit as much as He loves me or anyone else. It's sad, in some ways that in our culture we stigmatize some sin and make other sin (usually our own) as somehow minor or no as bad.

Frankly the passages that are cited here within scripture are not really all that ambiguous. It is speaking of homosexual and lesbian behavior and yes, the acts are described as sinful. So too is heterosexual activity outside of marriage or adultery within a marriage. For that matter so is gluttony (which is usually waxed over rather lightly by the average overweight pastor in a pulpit (and lest anyone think I'm getting too personal, I was an overweight pastor earlier in my life and I'm including me in that grouping.) The list could go on of course.

I frankly believe that there is a significant apology owed by many churches and christians, not for calling sin what it is, but for the selective and hypocritical way that it has been treated and the singling out of one "class" of sinners over the others. It's really not all that different from the attitudes and actions of the Pharisees that Jesus condemned roundly for their willingness to don a mask and pat themselves on the back while condemning others. The message has been sent very clearly by many evangelical and fundamentalist churches that homosexuals are a special class of evil and therefore unwelcome even to visit their services and not to declare who they are unless they are there to repent or to give testimony of how they've been delivered. The message appears to be, deny who you are and clean yourself up first and then we'll allow you in.

That said, it's my belief that the most important thing, indeed the only thing that is vital is for people to come to Jesus Christ. Jesus accepts us where we are and the funny thing is that once we have accepted Christ and have the Holy Spirit within us, then these issues are things we can address as the Spirit brings them up and frankly, the motivation that is most effective is when we respond in love to whom Jesus is and gratitude for what he's done. That's far more powerful than the use of guilt and shame coming from other people who condemn others while they hide their own sins or shortfallings

Sexual orientation is a difficult thing for us to understand. To this point, at least to my knowledge, there has been no effective tie to a "homosexual" gene. Out sexuality is deeply personal and a part of our identity. It's a product of many different factors and it's difficult to know why we're attracted to whom we're attracted. I don't believe that homosexual attraction in and of itself is sinful or that a person who has that attraction is more of a sinner on the basis that they have that orientation. Most of what goes into making that identification within us happens at a level that is subconscious and not a volitional choice that we make. That said, as others have pointed out, it's what we do in terms of our acting out behaviors that is the issue.

Where the rationalization comes in is that the predominant moral system in our society and culture now, is not based upon the acceptance of moral absolutes but instead on a system known as Utilitarianism. Utilitarianism operates on the assumption that the greatest state that we can be in is that of "happiness." Therefore the measure by which things are "good" or "bad" is based upon the option available in any given circumstance that causes the least amount of unhappiness relative to the other options. It's this basis of thinking that suggests that things that Christians would say are wrong when looked at through the lens of Utilitarianism, begs the question as to who is really being hurt by these behaviors and if there is no victim then in what basis do we judge or cast others aside for these behaviors?

It's a powerful influence in the values that are taught in the post-modern, post-christian era that we're entering and it's seducing even to those who are Christians but don't recognize what is going on and so you have even Christians falling prey to this change in underlying value systems. It's no longer good enough for God to reveal to us what His norms are and what the purpose of His creation is. Can we bypass or circumvent these things? Yes we can and in the end if we're sincere believers, accepted by God through Christ, the grace of God is sufficient. However, there are still consequences and for the Christian who is either deceived in their own thinking or is outright rebellious there are temporal consequences for our actions and it will also serve to quiet or silence the voice of God's spirit in our lives.

This is true of all sin, not just the special "biggies" that we like to focus on because for most people the biggest sins are those sins that others commit and we're very willing and quick to give ourselves a pass.

Hopefully this isn't rambling too much, but the bottom line as I understand it is when we come to Christ it's vitally important to us how we see God. If we view God as the great "party pooper" in the sky who looks like Gandalf and hurls lighten bolts at those of us who who slip up then it's easy to see why we want to put on masks before God and other to convince them (and ourselves) that we're OK and "good boy and girls" who are toeing the lines. When we see however the Father that Jesus came to reveal to us and tell us that God is loving and accepting (think the loving Father in the prodigal son parable) then we're free to drop our masks and accept that God accepts us where we are, that we can accept one another where we are and we can learn what it really means when Paul assures us (and this is worth printing out in full so here's the first part of Romans 8 that speaks to much of this:

Rom 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[f] And by him we cry, “Abba,[g] Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

So the answer to these types of issues are not to do what we're so humanly prone to do and make lists of sins and rank them and put together our human programs of how to clean ourselves up and present ourselves to God. The answer is to surrender to God and His spirit and enter into a loving relationship secure in who we are in Christ and then allow God to work these things out in our lives. Many of these things are life-long processes and we're doing nobody, least of all ourselves, any favors by trying to go back to the old taskmaster of self-improvement and self-discipline as the foundation to any change in our lives. It's doesn't work and it's no longer necessary. When the Spirit of Christ dwells within us we can count on God taking care of things in terms of guiding us into truth and maturity. Those elements may well end up being a part of change that is brought about in our lives but to the extent that it is, it is secondary to the work of God's Spirit in our hearts and lives.

So, for me, I love those who are homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual and even monosexual because God loves all of us and I'm no better than anyone else and certainly no better than God. I will agree with scripture with regard to what is says about homosexual behavior but I'm not going to make some sins less and some sins more in the eyes of God. Yes I understand that our human values and legal system makes such distinctions. That's fine. My citizenship lies elsewhere and if God can work through sinners like the murderer and adulterer King David, incestuous relationships in the Old Testament (some even within the human lineage of Christ) and more importantly, my own failings then I will start there and believe that God is equal to the task of bringing others to the point of addressing their issues and rejoice that they, like me, are not loved based upon their performance.

please provided proof of your explanation regarding this law being written for warring armies.

There is no "proof". Is there any proof for anything in the Bible? No. The Bible is up to total interpretation to each individual. It is not to be interpreted as one way and one way only.

To Zionist, I am not homosexual, I am bisexual but that is pretty close to being the same thing. I have prayed to God a lot about my sexuality and what it means in my life and I believe that he has sent me signs indicating that he will not punish me for my sexuality and who I happen to be partners with.

To respond to Furstentum Liechtenstein's question

How do you think God will judge a homosexual?

I think that God will judge a homosexual in the exact same way that He would judge a heterosexual. I am of the firm belief that He will place heterosexual people on the exact same level as homosexual people on their day of judgement.

And finally addressing Canuckster1127. I thank you very much for being such an open minded individual. I agree with a lot of the things that you said regarding God and homosexuality. There are still a couple of things that I could disagree with simply based on my interpretation of the Bible, but that happens with everything. So once again, thank you.

mlynchrules wrote:Is there any proof for anything in the Bible? No. The Bible is up to total interpretation to each individual. It is not to be interpreted as one way and one way only.

2Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2Pet 1:21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

You said in you initial post, "I am a very devoted Christian and have been a participant in a Catholic Church for my entire life".

From what I've read in your posts and being a former Catholic myself, that is certainly not the Catholic position nor the Christian position.

I don't know if you replied to the post while you were at a smorgasbord but your reply is the biggest pile of cheese I've heard in a while. Please revise your statement, including a Catholic response, because the Catholics on the board here would disagree with you and the rest of the Christian posters who responded, responded according to scripture not to some private interpretation as you are doing.

The Bible is up to total interpretation to each individual. It is not to be interpreted as one way and one way only.

As Bart said, the Bible isn't ambiguous regarding all sexual immorality. Homosexual or Hetero. That said, I doubt anything said here is going to change your mind. It sounds as if you are settled on the matter.
However,
If you are going to say the Bible is totally up to the interpretation of each individual then you also have to follow that line of reasoning all the way through to its logical conclusions. And there are some pretty serious implications if you do so. To be perfectly candid, it sounds as if you are trying to justify your lifestyle, not soundly interpret scripture. If you make this claim regarding the Bible, then please provide us with some evidence to validate the argument. Hermanuetics is a well developed field of study, and I assure you what you are saying doesn't follow.
Impuning the scripture has consequences. Is the life, death and resurrection of Christ up for interpretation? If so, then what does any of this matter?

I have prayed to God a lot about my sexuality and what it means in my life and I believe that he has sent me signs indicating that he will not punish me for my sexuality and who I happen to be partners with.

How about the sign of scripture? Since you want to be justified in acting on bi-sexual desires, is it possible that you will be loading the deck for confimring signs, and ignoring warnings? You've already evidenced that you will poopoo the idea that the bible can be consistently interpreted and understood. If you have correctly trusted Christ, then you will not be punished by God. However, your choices certainly could result in you punishing yourself. Knowlingly ignoring God's warnings, and impuning the counsel of scripture is not going to draw you near to God. It will harm your fellowship as a believer. The Bible is clear on the dangers of doing such.

By saying you are "bi-sexual" I think you are falling into a modern trap. That being that your sexuality defines who you are. It doesn't. A Christian is first and foremost identified "In Christ." Everything else needs to come into alignment with this reality. Friendships, relationships, behaviors, etc. Even if it means resisting and rejecting what the world says is OK. Jonah is an example of someone who didn't like what God asked of Him.

Katabole wrote:I don't know if you replied to the post while you were at a smorgasbord but your reply is the biggest pile of cheese I've heard in a while. Please revise your statement, including a Catholic response, because the Catholics on the board here would disagree with you and the rest of the Christian posters who responded, responded according to scripture not to some private interpretation as you are doing.

First of all, I never said that I was Catholic myself. I have been going to a Catholic Church my entire life, but I do not consider myself to be Catholic. I consider myself to be a Christian, not a specific denomination.

Second of all, I don't know why what I said seems to have enraged you. I neither quite understand why you would say "I don't know if you replied to the post while you were at a smorgasbord but your reply is the biggest pile of cheese I've heard in a while." nor do I quite understand exactly what that MEANS, but let me rephrase.

What I meant to say is that the Bible is a text that has been passed down generation to generation over a couple thousand years. It has been translated more times than can be legitimately counted and some things were bound to be mistranslated, poorly translated, or even just flat out changed as the Bible was translated over time. For this reason, yes, way way way back when the Bible was first written everything could and should have been taken as verbatim. Today however, with our current translations, we as Christians are responsible for figuring out the deeper meaning behind the Scripture and not just looking at everything at the superficial face value. For this reason there are a lot of ways that you can individually interpret the Bible and passages from the Bible. I hope that this clears up whatever was unclear to you from my previous replies.

Now to respond to jlay specifically,

By saying you are "bi-sexual" I think you are falling into a modern trap. That being that your sexuality defines who you are. It doesn't. A Christian is first and foremost identified "In Christ."

My sexuality definitely does not define me. I will always and have always been first and foremost a Christian. My faith is the most important thing in my life. If I felt like my sexual orientation would hinder my ability to be a faithful Christian, I would do as I felt was necessary to continue my life as a faithful Christian.

And could you please clear up what you mean by;

Since you want to be justified in acting on bi-sexual desires, is it possible that you will be loading the deck for confimring signs, and ignoring warnings? You've already evidenced that you will poopoo the idea that the bible can be consistently interpreted and understood.

I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say here, my apologies.

mlynchrules wrote: I don't know why what I said seems to have enraged you.

I was not enraged in the slightest and I apologize if my post came across as condescending. I was however, baffled.


Look at the statement in verse 20: "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." That simply means that one cannot take a single verse of Scripture and build a doctrinal view while ignoring other Scriptures that deal with the subject.

But this passage is often misinterpreted, to claim that we should not engage in the private interpretation of Scripture. That is not what the text says. The truth of any prophecy or teaching in Scripture is not in the interpretation, but in the Word itself. But this does not imply that we should not interpret. A good interpretation finds the meaning in the text, whether it is explicit or implicit. A bad interpretation imposes a new meaning on the text, or distorts the meaning, or subtracts from the meaning. So this passage is a guide to help us interpret Scripture, not a prohibition against interpreting Scripture. When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek not another sense.

While it is true that "private interpretations" of the Bible result in different denominational views, it must be admitted that there is only one correct interpretation of a scripture. Many applications may be made without doing damage to the correct interpretation.

Look up and read 1Cor 2:9-14 and notice "the deep things of God" are only known by those who have the Spirit of God. "Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." We cannot take a verse of Scripture and teach a doctrine apart from the other verses on the subject.

An incorrect division or comparison of Scriptures will always result in error. This has resulted in a broad spectrum of denominations, including all cults.

The Jehovah's Witnesses for example, actually got its start from Charles Taze Russell and his rejection of many traditional doctrines.

Thus began his lifelong denunciation of and attack on "organized religion." Of course, the Jehovah's Witnesses reject most all of the cardinal doctrines of the Bible including the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the physical Resurrection and Return of Christ, the eternal existence of the soul and the validity of the infinite Atonement to name a few. They use Isa 43:10-11 as a foundation, claiming they are the witnesses of Jehovah and denying the Trinity. Fact is, comparing Scripture with Scripture, we find they are wrong.

Again, for example,teaching on Baptismal Regeneration: There are some few denominations that teach that one must be baptized to be saved. They all point to Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 and 1Peter 3:18-21 as proof texts. When compared to all other Scriptures which give the plan of salvation, we find baptism omitted. It is a private interpretation of Scripture to ignore all other Scriptures which teach Salvation by Grace through Faith alone.

No doctrine can stand on one or more verses in opposition to the clear and plain teaching of the whole body of Truth. Scripture must be compared with Scripture and Truth must be rightly divided in order to come to a proper Biblical position.

I may not interpret the Word my own way. I may not teach what I think it means. I must teach what God really means. Why do you think we have so many different denominations and splits in the churches? Because people do not let the Word of God speak. They bring to the table their own understanding. So, if I dare not interpret the Word of God my own way than either there is no interpretation available or the Word of God interprets itself. I say, since God has given us all things that pertain unto life and Godliness (2Peter 1:20) through His Word, then the Word must interpret itself.

The Bible does interpret itself. It will interpret itself in one of three ways:

1. In the verse where it is written

Verses must be understood in light of their biblical meaning.
Verses must be in harmony with other verses on the same subject.

2. Narrative Development

3. In its context and by previous usage.

Most of the Bible interprets itself in the verse right where it is written.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth

This verse needs no explanation, in the beginning God created the heaven and earth.

Pope Benedict the XVI has claimed:

“When exegesis is not theological, Scripture cannot be the soul of theology, and vice versa; when theology is not essentially Scriptural interpretation within the Church, then this theology no longer has a foundation.”

It is truly impossible in my opinion, to be a faithful Christian, who seeks and does the will of God, while refusing to learn the faith directly from scripture because the scripture reveals the true character of Christ. The fundamentalist Catholic speaks as if we should learn only from the Magisterium. But of course, such a one as this errs not only by rejecting the study of history and scripture, but also, typically, by over-simplifying and distorting what the Magisterium teaches. The fundamentalist over-simplifies religion, so that he/she can ‘own’ it, so that he/she can say, as if rendering a definitive judgment, ‘This is what the Church teaches. That is not what the Church teaches’. Such an assertion would be fine if it were a conclusion reached and supported by a theological argument based on Tradition, Scripture, and/or Magisterium. But often it is not. The fundamentalist Catholic merely tells you what (he/she claims) the Church allows or does not allow.

Katabole wrote:The fundamentalist Catholic speaks as if we should learn only from the Magisterium.

I'm not sure but the above doesn't sound true. In any event, the Roman Catholic Church doesn't condone bisexuality, homosexuality and even considers wedded Catholics married until death do them part. What nerve! Some Protestant denominations can have openly homosexual pastors, regard the Koran as inspired and may divorce spouses seven times seventy times! Protestant denominations have enough perversions of their own to be looking askance at the RCC.

Katabole wrote:It is truly impossible in my opinion, to be a faithful Christian, who seeks and does the will of God, while refusing to learn the faith directly from scripture because the scripture reveals the true character of Christ.

I sort-of agree, and in most cases this would be true but I have met someone for whom learning directly from Scripture would be impossible.

I think the problem in this discussion with mlynchrules is that some here have been assuming that he's born-again. I think mlynchrules is someone with faith in a form of self-created religion. He has a faulty understanding of what God wants from His people. May we help him understand.

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:I think the problem in this discussion with mlynchrules is that some here have been assuming that he's born-again.

Actually, I am a born-again Christian. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my own personal Savior. I just have a somewhat different value system in which I actually love everyone as God intended and do not judge others actions. I think that this is the way that God intended us to live our lives and I personally think that it is the best way to live my life.

mlynchrules wrote:

please provided proof of your explanation regarding this law being written for warring armies.

There is no "proof". Is there any proof for anything in the Bible? No. The Bible is up to total interpretation to each individual. It is not to be interpreted as one way and one way only.

To Zionist, I am not homosexual, I am bisexual but that is pretty close to being the same thing. I have prayed to God a lot about my sexuality and what it means in my life and I believe that he has sent me signs indicating that he will not punish me for my sexuality and who I happen to be partners with.,.

Are you aware of...

Eph 5:3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.

Eph 5:5, 6, 7, For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. NKJV

The morality of love interpreted as unbridled tolerance is no match for God’s true love that will protect his beloved from fornicators, unclean persons, the covetous, or idolaters at all cost.

Note also Gal 5:19, 20, 21 and Hebrews 13:4 as well too…

Acts 17:30 has a good principle for you…as does 1 Peter 1:14, 15

mlynchrules wrote:

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:I think the problem in this discussion with mlynchrules is that some here have been assuming that he's born-again.

Actually, I am a born-again Christian. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my own personal Savior. I just have a somewhat different value system in which I actually love everyone as God intended and do not judge others actions. I think that this is the way that God intended us to live our lives and I personally think that it is the best way to live my life.

I will put you on my prayer list:)

I would like judge to be defined here.

By judge, do you mean telling another person that they have made a clear mistake and are wrong for making that decision? Along with proof and justifications for their position in a peaceful manner with love.
or do mean telling another person that they have done wrong, will die, and i'll go get my noose, let's find a tree? Or you WILL go to hell without a doubt in anyones mind?

Also, I just want to clarify that God and sin cannot co-exist. Biblically and logically proven impossible.

(NASB)John 12:25
"He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:In any event, the Roman Catholic Church doesn't condone bisexuality, homosexuality and even considers wedded Catholics married until death do them part. What nerve! Some Protestant denominations can have openly homosexual pastors, regard the Koran as inspired and may divorce spouses seven times seventy times! Protestant denominations have enough perversions of their own to be looking askance at the RCC.

I agree, the Protestant churches are not all entirely angelic in their character, many problems still permeate and regardless of some of the faults of Catholicism, there is still quite a lot of integrity in that church.

FL, you have an excellent habit of being able to say things in few words that it takes me paragraphs to get across.

I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say here, my apologies.

This has to do with how you are impuning the clear meaning of scripture. There are certainly areas of interpretation that are difficult, but one should not use those difficult areas to throw confusion onto the rest of the text that is straight forward. Just simply read what I said about the implications of saying, "The Bible is up to total interpretation to each individual." Before we can make any progress, I believe you will have to change your mind on this issue.

What I meant to say is that the Bible is a text that has been passed down generation to generation over a couple thousand years. It has been translated more times than can be legitimately counted and some things were bound to be mistranslated, poorly translated, or even just flat out changed as the Bible was translated over time.

All this shows is that you have a very low view of scripture and scripture translation. This is an argument made by detractors of the Bible, and one that is easily answered. The authenticity and reliability of the Bible is as well studied a field as you will find. What you are doing is taking the testimony of detractors and adopting as your own, without investigating for yourself.
-Are you familiar with the processes over the last 2,000 years to preserve the original words?
Here is a link. One of many sources available to study this subject. http://bible.org/seriespage/reliability-bible
video if you don't like to read. http://www.truthcasting.com/Josh-McDowe ... 439.sermon

Think of the consequences of your thinking. If you claim to be a born again Christian, then how do you know the term 'born again' wasn't also something flat out changed? As I said, if you follow this line of reasoning through, it has serious consequences.
What I mean by loading the deck is exactly this. W.C. Fields had a funny line. He was reading the Bible and, knowing his raunchy character, someone asked, "why are you reading that?" To which he responds, "Looking for loopholes!!"
To what lenghts would you go to justify your sexual desires? I think you've shown us. You will impune the reliability of scripture. If you are a Christian first and foremost, then why would you impune the very documents you rely on to know what constitutes a Christian? Otherwise, the term Christian is arbitrary.

I think the problem in this discussion with mlynchrules is that some here have been assuming that he's born-again. I think mlynchrules is someone with faith in a form of self-created religion. He has a faulty understanding of what God wants from His people. May we help him understand.

I suppose that is possible. But, if someone says they have trusted Christ as their savior, then why shouldn't we? Because they sin? We'll, look in the mirror. All scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. It is apparent that our friend has a low, and incorrect view of scripture.

What I meant to say is that the Bible is a text that has been passed down generation to generation over a couple thousand years. It has been translated more times than can be legitimately counted and some things were bound to be mistranslated, poorly translated, or even just flat out changed as the Bible was translated over time.

I am constantly amazed at people who, claiming to be Christians in acceptance of that God created the world and believe that He is all powerful, that His Incarnation in the Son came to die, be resurrected and save us, and yet they also have so much doubt about the accuracy of Scripture. If we believe that God is all powerful, that He created the universe and countless stars and galaxies - as well as the unfathomably complex conditions, physics and chemistries necessary for them to form, along with all the exponentially impossible interconnective systems and processes necessary for life on earth to exist and thrive - DO YOU REALLY THINK HE COULD NOT ALSO HAVE PROTECTED HIS HOLY WORD, PRECISELY AS HE SO DESIRED?!!!

And as Jesus says He came to fulfill ALL that is in the words of the prophets and Scripture - and certainly as we well know PRECISELY what was in the Scriptures known to those in the first century, and as the massive manuscript evidences and textural scholarship for the New Testament manuscripts gives us such a high confidence of the incredibly accurate transmission of the Scripture we now hold - DO YOU REALLY THINK GOD WOULD HAVE ALLOWED A DECIMATION, FRAGMENTATION/DESTRUCTION AND A RADICAL ALTERING OF SCRIPTURE HE/JESUS CAME TO FULFILL? Or that THE WORDS OF THOSE HE LEFT BEHIND (His Apostles) WOULD NOT ALSO BE PROTECTED?

DO YOU NOT BELIEVE THAT A GOD WHO CAME TO DIE AND SUFFER UNTHINKABLE BRUTALITIES, ALL TO FULFILL HIS WORDS, WOULD NOT FIND IT IMPORTANT TO PROTECT THOSE VERY WORDS? DO YOU THINK A GOD WHO CAN CREATE AND SUSTAIN A UNIVERSE WOULDN'T ALSO HAVE THE POWER TO PROTECT HIS WORDS? Belief that allows for such a LIMITED view of God's abilities, as they relate to the PROTECTION of His word and how He sees the IMPORTANCE of his word, need to be reexamined in light of Who God says He is and how powerful He is. I can tell you God did not throw His words down to earth, to His hand-picked, divinely inspired prophets and Apostles, haphazardly or like a drunk throwing a beer can out a speeding car's window (not caring who finds it, whether they find it, or in what condition they find it - if at ALL - or about what altering or omitting they might do to it after finding it). That makes no sense at all, and a vast amount of scholarship confirms just how naive such false beliefs are.

So my challenge to those Christians who take such a "low" of Scripture is, DO SOME RESEARCH ON THE TOPIC. It's one thing to not know the truth or not have it available, but it's another thing entirely to continually claim ignorance or not seek answers to your doubts. There are many, many good websites and great books that address this issue. Much excellent info is right here on G&S. Some here might want to reference the best links or make some recommendations.

Here's a good introductory article about the issue of Scripture's accuracy: http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/edito ... 1205W1.htm And as such a tremendous amount of very key theology and writings of the OT prophets is quoted throughout the NT by Jesus and the Apostles, then to doubt the OT is to essentially also doubt the NT as well. They hang or fall together.

Ok, let's slow down here. This wasn't meant to become an argument regarding the accuracy of the Bible. The Bible is a very important text and I hold it very closely as important to my faith, I just think that there are a few things that don't make sense. I mean, first of all on an unrelated topic the Bible does contain information on how to properly enslave another which I think that we can all today agree that slavery is not a good or sensible thing. This being said, I'm not using this as an argument against the Bible, I'm just using this as an example to say that not everything in the Bible is applicable to today's modern society.

I definitely use the Bible as God's mandates for what how we are to behave/live our lives, but I think that we can all agree that certain things in the Bible cannot or should not be applied towards today's society (also including how a man treats his wife). I'm not on here to try to impose my own beliefs, I am on here to try and find out from other Christians why they believe homosexuality to be a negative thing and what harm it has on our society. I also am trying to find out why Christians judge others just because of their sexuality. To define what I mean by "judge", I refer to people telling homosexual people that what they do is a sin and that if they do not change their ways they will surely go to hell and then prevent them from having rights such as the right to marriage. I respect that you have your opinions but I just don't understand them.

And to bippy123, I thank you for your prayers. I do not think that I am in need of prayers, but I am not going to turn down a prayer.