Evidence for God from Science

Graceismine wrote:bippy 123...I Capeesh, however I don't believe God caused your illness. God used it because He says "Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."

Amen Grace:)
I have nothing more to add because you said it perfectly

Xericos wrote:

wrain62 wrote:You take some of the worst things with suffering and say, "there enough difficulties in the world, why these?", but there will always be a horrendous suffering ; so where would you put a cut off point? Also, Humans are very plastic in that our suffering is relative what we are used to. The less there is to suffer from, the more sensitive we become and feel that suffering at the same level with something softer. I do not get why you put cut off points that are just arbitrary to your liking. The reality of suffering should bring us together as neibors and together with God. Unfairness is a reality, true, but it is always only temporary.

Here's how I view how suffering is caused in the world:

1. Intentional harm caused by man
2. Intentional harm outside of man's control (infectious parasites and disease)
3. Incidental harm (car accident, random animal attack, exposure to chemicals)

Yes, it is arbitrary to call #2 out in relation to suffering as a whole. Here's the difference. #1 and #3 are not caused by God, but by us, our choices and the hazards of everyday life in this world we've developed. #2 was created by God -- a group of organisms whose only method of survival is to feed on us for their own well being. Parasites that are host-specific to humans. It doesn't sit well with me that our loving Father would design creatures such as these, even when considering the fall of man.

Why is the sky blue? Because God made it that way, accept it. Why are there parasites? Because God made it that way, accept it. There's pretty much no room for discussion and it may as well end here. This is not a scientific argument, but more of a personal observation that I strongly disagree with God on (in fact, it's the only one). It's helpful to get other views on this...keep 'em coming.

Okay. Why is it bad that God created that suffering? What is wrong with that authority? Sure you may want to compare it to a human action, but human creation of suffering is bad only because he is unworthy of such authority. The very nature of human nature makes him unworthy, and his actions that express that evil is evil only for the reason that he has his heart set on playing God. As I said before, suffering is independant of evil. The correlation only comes when humans make themseves in the likeness of God with that abuse of power or lack of care for compassion(which is selfish), which does not apply to God himself(probably because it is there for a reason as I mentioned in the above posts).

1.Playing God is evil
2.God plays God.
Therefore God is evil?

bippy123 wrote:

Graceismine wrote:bippy 123...I Capeesh, however I don't believe God caused your illness. God used it because He says "Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."

Amen Grace:)
I have nothing more to add because you said it perfectly

Bless you brother. Good to be on the same track occasionally.

Graceismine wrote:

bippy123 wrote:

Graceismine wrote:bippy 123...I Capeesh, however I don't believe God caused your illness. God used it because He says "Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."

Amen Grace:)
I have nothing more to add because you said it perfectly

Bless you brother. Good to be on the same track occasionally.

Thank you my sister in Christ. Your both humble and wise. 2 qualities I hope to increase. You set a good example:)

Graceismine,

It is understood by many, that man's sin caused God to curse all of creation, but according to the text, the curse found in 3:17-19 was localized. It was directed at the ground (adamah) from which Adam was taken (Gen. 3:19, 23), not the whole earth. It was most likely the land of Eden (a name probably meaning paradise) and the garden therein which were cursed.

Genesis 3:17, 19 and 23 indicate that after being banished from the garden Adam was to live, work and die in the land from which he was taken (See Ezek. 21:30). We know that Adam was cast just outside of the Garden (Gen. 3:24) and that the garden was within the land of Eden (Gen. 2:8). Since Adam was not formed in the garden (Gen. 2:7-8, 15) and because it wouldn't make since to create him far from the garden in which he was to live, I believe he was created in Eden.

More evidence comes from Genesis four. In this chapter Cain kills his brother and in 4:14 he says to God "You have driven me this day from the face of the ground (adamah)." Obviously he was not driven into the sea, so he must have been referring to leaving a specific land. Also, in this chapter, this ground represents the "face" and "presence" of God. This fits with the paradise that was Eden. In verse 16 we are told that Cain went out and dwelt in the land of Nod, east of Eden. Therefore, it would seem that Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel were living in the land of Eden up until this point. Therefore, the curse was on this ground/land. Eden, once a paradise, would now produce thorns and thistles like the rest of the world.


Genesis 2:6 But a raincloud began to rise up from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground.
7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground…
8 And the LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.
15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden…

Genesis 3:17 Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.
18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you
19 By the sweat of your face You shall eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken…
23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim…

Genesis 4:10 And He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground.
11 "And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand.
12 "When you cultivate the ground, it shall no longer yield its strength to you; you shall be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth."
14 "Behold, Thou hast driven me this day from the face of the ground; and from Thy face I shall be hidden, and I shall be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth…
16 Then Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

dayage said

Therefore, the curse was on this ground/land. Eden, once a paradise, would now produce thorns and thistles like the rest of the world.

I never saw it like that before. Reason for further study.

Whatever....I maintain that the earth and world in which we live is cursed and is the reason why we do not live in perfection in relation to the topic at hand. Someone said that we cause much of our own illness etc. and that is true but is still indirectly a result of Satan being the god of this world.

It has just occurred to me that your view is that when God created the earth it was not good. The only part that was good was Eden. Is that right?

We look forward to a new Heaven and a new Earth one day. Perhaps that is part of our redemption and the redemption of nature as it groans under the weight of the curse.

off to check Genesis again.

Graceismine wrote:dayage said

Therefore, the curse was on this ground/land. Eden, once a paradise, would now produce thorns and thistles like the rest of the world.

I never saw it like that before. Reason for further study.

Whatever....I maintain that the earth and world in which we live is cursed and is the reason why we do not live in perfection in relation to the topic at hand. Someone said that we cause much of our own illness etc. and that is true but is still indirectly a result of Satan being the god of this world.

It has just occurred to me that your view is that when God created the earth it was not good. The only part that was good was Eden. Is that right?

We look forward to a new Heaven and a new Earth one day. Perhaps that is part of our redemption and the redemption of nature as it groans under the weight of the curse.

off to check Genesis again.

There is nothing wrong with the Earth, even with its parasites and natural disasters, because suffering is independant of evil.

I believe a worthy question on this topic is "how do we know that the parasites and such are in the state they originated in"? Suppose for a moment that what we perceive as parasites were actually something else to begin with. There are many times I have debated evolutionists on the subject of a devolving genome.... ours would not be the only ones to devolve... All of creation would be affected.
From my understanding of Gods intent I believe that we are supposed to see what the effects of sin are. Devolving, breakdowns and error are the most observable results we can see all around us. I believe I would not attribute an intentional evil to the creator who says he made all things perfect in the beginning as I would feel pretty bad if I later found out that it was simply a breakdown and decay causing the observations we see now.

wrain62 wrote:

Graceismine wrote:dayage said

Therefore, the curse was on this ground/land. Eden, once a paradise, would now produce thorns and thistles like the rest of the world.

I never saw it like that before. Reason for further study.

Whatever....I maintain that the earth and world in which we live is cursed and is the reason why we do not live in perfection in relation to the topic at hand. Someone said that we cause much of our own illness etc. and that is true but is still indirectly a result of Satan being the god of this world.

It has just occurred to me that your view is that when God created the earth it was not good. The only part that was good was Eden. Is that right?

We look forward to a new Heaven and a new Earth one day. Perhaps that is part of our redemption and the redemption of nature as it groans under the weight of the curse.

off to check Genesis again.

There is nothing wrong with the Earth, even with its parasites and natural disasters, because suffering is independant of evil.

If there is nothing wrong with the earth why this:

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Isaiah 65:17 "Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.
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Isaiah 66:22 "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure.
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Romans 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
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2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

????

KBCid wrote:I believe a worthy question on this topic is "how do we know that the parasites and such are in the state they originated in"? Suppose for a moment that what we perceive as parasites were actually something else to begin with. There are many times I have debated evolutionists on the subject of a devolving genome.... ours would not be the only ones to devolve... All of creation would be affected.
From my understanding of Gods intent I believe that we are supposed to see what the effects of sin are. Devolving, breakdowns and error are the most observable results we can see all around us. I believe I would not attribute an intentional evil to the creator who says he made all things perfect in the beginning as I would feel pretty bad if I later found out that it was simply a breakdown and decay causing the observations we see now.

We do know that cells mutate so parasites may have done so too.

There is a line of thought that sin didn't necessarily change the organisms but affected the relationships between mankind and the earth and the organisms. So it's not that there were no thorns or poison ivy or mosquitoes or....parasites or bacteria, but out relationship with them was so changed as to make it toil and a curse.

Not saying there were no changes but simply that the change in the curse was perhaps more fundamental to the co-existence.

zoegirl wrote:There is a line of thought that sin didn't necessarily change the organisms but affected the relationships between mankind and the earth and the organisms.

Another investigation at the creation evidence museum, the gnarled 'spaghetti-like' formation of copperhead snake venom as seen under the scanning electron microscope before the copperhead snake was 'housed' in a small hyperbaric chamber. After four weeks in the hyperbaric chamber, venom from the same copperhead snake shows a much less distorted structure (less gnarled) indicating a lowering of the toxicity level. Conditions in the hyperbaric chamber are seeking to provide the type of environment that existed in the time prior to the great flood. http://keelynet.com/biology/baugh.htm

interesting indeed.

Graceismine,

It has just occurred to me that your view is that when God created the earth it was not good. The only part that was good was Eden. Is that right?

No, the earth was good, but in what context? Notice, the original conditions of the earth (Gen. 1:2). God called it "good" each time He made a change to one of these conditions. "Good" has nothing to do with death, sin, etc. It has to do with the fact that the earth was now habitable and put under the care of man (God's image on earth).

Whatever....I maintain that the earth and world in which we live is cursed and is the reason why we do not live in perfection in relation to the topic at hand.

Will you please show how the context shows that it was the earth and not the land of Eden which was cursed.

Is. 65:17, 66:22; 2 Peter 3:10 All show that this creation was meant to be temporary. Remember, God chose us for salvation and for Christ to die for us, before creation took place (Eph. 1:4-5; 2 Timothy 1:9; Rev. 13:8). Once evil is done away with, God will create a new, perfect and eternal creation in which sin will never appear (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:27).

Romans 8 is about how we as sinners effect the earth. I've discussed this in the past and will try to link to it.

KBCid wrote:

zoegirl wrote:There is a line of thought that sin didn't necessarily change the organisms but affected the relationships between mankind and the earth and the organisms.

Another investigation at the creation evidence museum, the gnarled 'spaghetti-like' formation of copperhead snake venom as seen under the scanning electron microscope before the copperhead snake was 'housed' in a small hyperbaric chamber. After four weeks in the hyperbaric chamber, venom from the same copperhead snake shows a much less distorted structure (less gnarled) indicating a lowering of the toxicity level. Conditions in the hyperbaric chamber are seeking to provide the type of environment that existed in the time prior to the great flood. http://keelynet.com/biology/baugh.htm

interesting indeed.

Sorry, but I'm not a fan of the creation museum or baugh's work

KBCid, I'm with zoegirl on this one. From the link that was posted:

Genesis states that life on earth was created 'perfect' and designed to live forever.

Genesis states no such thing. If that is in the second sentence of the article, I really don't hold much credence in the rest of the article.