Evidence for God from Science

You will not find anywhwere that The Word was ever created.
Begotten, yes, existing before creation yes, but nowhere was Jesus, the living Word of God, created.

KBCid,

Seveneyes did post here. His last post was the day before you joined.


PaulSacramento,

You will not find anywhwere that The Word was ever created.
Begotten, yes, existing before creation yes, but nowhere was Jesus, the living Word of God, created.

You are correct.

KBCid wrote:
The first act of creation the 'living God' did was to create the 'living word'.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Where in Hell did you get this?

KBCid wrote:
The first act of creation the 'living God' did was to create the 'living word'.

Sorry to break this to you but your posts show that you don't understand the Bible. This is correct:

PaulSacramento wrote:You will not find anywhwere that The Word was ever created.
Begotten, yes, existing before creation yes, but nowhere was Jesus, the living Word of God, created.

I you stay around here long enough and have a spirit willing to learn, you will learn.

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

KBCid wrote:The first act of creation the 'living God' did was to create the 'living word'.

Where in Hell did you get this?

FL

FACT: He didn't get it in Hell.

Graceismine wrote:

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

KBCid wrote:The first act of creation the 'living God' did was to create the 'living word'.

Where in Hell did you get this?

FL

FACT: He didn't get it in Hell.

Jesus isn't a created being. If KBCid says that He is, then he got that from the pit of hell.

FL

CS Lewis really said it best when he explained the difference between begotten and created.
What is created is what it is and had very little, if anything, to do with the nature of who created it.
A work of art by Picasso was created by Him but has nothing to do with Him or his nature.
While we like to use the term "create" when we create a life ( union between a man and a woman), the correct term is beget.
We can't compare creating a cake or a novel or a picture with begetting a child, right?
What we beget SHARES our nature, is US.
Hence what God begets ( Christ) is God and what God creates is what it is: trees, angels, animals, humans, etc.

PaulSacramento wrote:CS Lewis really said it best when he explained the difference between begotten and created.
What is created is what it is and had very little, if anything, to do with the nature of who created it.
A work of art by Picasso was created by Him but has nothing to do with Him or his nature.
While we like to use the term "create" when we create a life ( union between a man and a woman), the correct term is beget.
We can't compare creating a cake or a novel or a picture with begetting a child, right?
What we beget SHARES our nature, is US.
Hence what God begets ( Christ) is God and what God creates is what it is: trees, angels, animals, humans, etc.

If I'm not mistaken, you're very close to committing the heresy of modalism.

Byblos wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:CS Lewis really said it best when he explained the difference between begotten and created.
What is created is what it is and had very little, if anything, to do with the nature of who created it.
A work of art by Picasso was created by Him but has nothing to do with Him or his nature.
While we like to use the term "create" when we create a life ( union between a man and a woman), the correct term is beget.
We can't compare creating a cake or a novel or a picture with begetting a child, right?
What we beget SHARES our nature, is US.
Hence what God begets ( Christ) is God and what God creates is what it is: trees, angels, animals, humans, etc.

If I'm not mistaken, you're very close to committing the heresy of modalism.

Baby steps dude

PaulSacramento wrote:You will not find anywhwere that The Word was ever created. Begotten, yes, existing before creation yes, but nowhere was Jesus, the living Word of God, created.

Create may indeed have been a bad choice of wording since creation is an act of creativity, an act of design. We were designed. Christ however, was not designed. He came directly from the father. Our begetting of offspring is a direct correlation to how Christ came to be. He has his own identity but since he came directly from the father he is as much a part of the father as our children are of us. Keep in mind we are created to reflect the image of God. Our offspring have their own identities. When our children do as they are told and uphold our way then we act as one just as Christ and his father are one.
The key point I attempted to make was that they each have their own mind, able to make choices. Which was why they could say;
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness....
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil

The beginning of Eve is a similarity of the relation between the father and the son;
Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

This relationship where Eve comes directly from Adam is what allows for oneness;
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Paul had an understanding of this;
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

God could does not lie and he would be unable to truthfully say;
Mat 3:17 ...This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

unless Christ had indeed come directly from him. However the fact remains that Christ is his own entity. He can speak to his father and his father can speak to him. The twain are one in spirit. Mathew and Christ both confirm this;

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Again Christ confirms his separate identity from his father here;
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

The father is greater than the son;
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Sorry to break this to you but your posts show that you don't understand the Bible. If you stay around here long enough and have a spirit willing to learn, you will learn. FL

Understanding of something can indeed be a perceptual challenge. What you may truely be positing is that my understanding of the bible is not the same as yours which I can accept. However, the question arises "how do you know that your understanding is the absolute correct one?. Do you 'believe' it is correct or do you know its correct?.

My assumption here is that being human and not being God I probably have errors of understanding which I am willing to amend as I consider further evidences and logic. Discourse in this type of environment allows me to test what I think I understand and see how others have derived their conclusions.

I know that if I seek God and I accept an error as truth and stick with it then I will never see God.

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

I feel confidant that if God said;
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Then indeed I can 'prove' things.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

KBCid wrote: Understanding of something can indeed be a perceptual challenge. What you may truely be positing is that my understanding of the bible is not the same as yours which I can accept.

Your posts show a lack of understanding of the Bible. There is nothing you can really do about this short of accepting Jesus as Lord of your life. Until you do this, you will never understand what you are talking about and you will not accept the explanations Christians give. I do not affirm this, the Bible does:

-Dt 29:2-6, God gives understanding to whom He wishes, when He wishes.
-Isa 6:9-10, God blinds the hard of heart.
-Mt 13:11-15, God has not found unbelievers worthy of knowledge.
-2 Cor 4:4, slavery to your god renders you unfit for service to God.

...and so on. So, it is impossible for you to understand the Bible as its Author will ensure you stay in ignorance until you do His will. And the will of God is that you recognize Jesus for who He is, repent of your sins, and accept Him as Lord. Until that happens, you will forever be afflicted with spiritual blindness.

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote: Your posts show a lack of understanding of the Bible. There is nothing you can really do about this short of accepting Jesus as Lord of your life. Until you do this, you will never understand what you are talking about and you will not accept the explanations Christians give.

Ok lets see what you are really saying here.
1) because my understanding doesn't match yours then I am lacking understanding
2) I can't have proper understanding until I accept Christ as my lord. Thus by inference you assume that you have and I have not.
3) Any christian has the proper understanding.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote: I do not affirm this, the Bible does:
-Dt 29:2-6, God gives understanding to whom He wishes, when He wishes.
-Isa 6:9-10, God blinds the hard of heart.
-Mt 13:11-15, God has not found unbelievers worthy of knowledge.
-2 Cor 4:4, slavery to your god renders you unfit for service to God.

Indeed when I read many of these verses for the first time I was struck with the thought of helplessness, since at first reading it appeared that its not worth trying to get to know God because he will make his choices and if you are lucky enough to be picked then you will 'know' how to properly divide his word and do what's right. A very depressing POV.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote: ...and so on. So, it is impossible for you to understand the Bible as its Author will ensure you stay in ignorance until you do His will. And the will of God is that you recognize Jesus for who He is, repent of your sins, and accept Him as Lord. Until that happens, you will forever be afflicted with spiritual blindness. FL

Did you really say; "its Author will ensure you stay in ignorance until you do His will".

To which I must reply "if I am ignorant how can I do HIS will?
I must say our interpretation of God the father appears quite different. Myself I have come to understand that our maker allows us to make a choice... and in order to help us make an informed decision he offers his word for the express purpose of understanding who He is and our relationship to him. I'm fairly certain that an honest seeker of understanding should be able reach it if he applies the rules stated within the text itself; 1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

KBCid wrote:Did you really say; "its Author will ensure you stay in ignorance until you do His will".

To which I must reply "if I am ignorant how can I do HIS will?

God says you will be kept in spiritual blindness until you do His will:

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:... the will of God is that you recognize Jesus for who He is, repent of your sins, and accept Him as Lord. Until that happens, you will forever be afflicted with spiritual blindness.

Do the above and your eyes will be opened. Are you ready?

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:God says you will be kept in spiritual blindness until you do His will. FL

Please povide the verses which state this is true concerning those who; 1Jn 4:15 ...shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.


I am stating/ confessing quite clearly that "Jesus is the son of God". I confess quite clearly that the biblical text shows that Jesus is not God the father but a separate being who was begotten and who on every level is one in spirit with his father. Jesus is God's son who quite clearly stated;

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Christ was given the power of choice by his father. He chose to lay it down to save us. He is the lamb who's blood can be shed once for all the sins of those who believe that he is who he says he is and follow his example during their life.

Do you still believe I am being spiritually blinded?

dayage wrote:Read this before I answer your post.
http://www.reasons.org/articles/tempora ... on-reveals

I have read Hugh's paper and I see that he makes the same assumption about God creating time. He asserts that since scientists have come to a similar conclusion theoretically that it provides backing for the concept. Neither the translation nor the scientific theory provide evidence for their particular view. Thus, neither can provide backing for the other.
This type of thinking would be the same as saying that ancient pagan religions held that nature was the power that caused life and the current theory of evolution is the scientific theory that backs the pagan belief as being true. Should we believe it? or question the foundations that caused both of them to occur?.
As I posted in a previous post there are things which must be dealt with from scripture which invalidates the concept of God creating time. If you wish to delve deeper into this subject I would like to see what comes of it.