Evidence for God from Science

I just finished reading the wiki link. From the opening description I thought "this sounds familiar". Right on! further down we see Word of Faith mentioned. 'nuff said"

Graceismine, have you had experience in the word faith movement?

But if in our death we are paying the price of sin ( and we all still die of course), what price did Christ pay?

PaulSacramento wrote:But if in our death we are paying the price of sin ( and we all still die of course), what price did Christ pay?

The price of the second death.

Byblos wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:But if in our death we are paying the price of sin ( and we all still die of course), what price did Christ pay?

The price of the second death.

Byblos, are you claiming that it's spiritual death(eternal separation from God), that is the wages of sin? Not physical death?

Rick beat me to the question.

This does show why there are so many interpretations of the "ransom" and why there are a few "theories of atonement".

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:But if in our death we are paying the price of sin ( and we all still die of course), what price did Christ pay?

The price of the second death.

Byblos, are you claiming that it's spiritual death(eternal separation from God), that is the wages of sin? Not physical death?

You're conflating two things. The wages of sin is death, physical death. If this were the price Christ paid for on our behalf then why are we still dying? God demands a sacrifice as atonement for sin. In the OT animals were used as a substitutionary sacrifice for atonement. Christ's death put an end to animal sacrifice as he is now our once-and-for-all eternal sacrifice to God for the atonement of our sins (corporate redemption). But Christ's death and resurrection did much more than that. It conquered spiritual death and opened the gates of heaven for direct reconciliation with God apart from the law (individual salvation).

Now, the question must be asked:
Why does God demand a sacrifice as atonement for sin? Christ forgave sins without ANY need of a sacrifice, correct?

Byblos, I know this has been discussed here before. I guess I'm of the belief that it's spiritual death, that is the wages of sin. I believe God took away access to the tree of life, from Adam,(thereby ensuring physical death) as a blessing, not a punishment. Now that Adam had sinned, and was spiritually dead, living forever physically, while being spiritually dead, would have been horrible.

Just like I believe Romans 5 is referring to spiritual death, not physical.

RickD wrote:Byblos, I know this has been discussed here before. I guess I'm of the belief that it's spiritual death, that is the wages of sin. I believe God took away access to the tree of life, from Adam,(thereby ensuring physical death) as a blessing, not a punishment. Now that Adam had sinned, and was spiritually dead, living forever physically, while being spiritually dead, would have been horrible.

Just like I believe Romans 5 is referring to spiritual death, not physical.

I agree with Rick.
Regardless of that I am very interested as to why others believe the way they do about the Ransom, I just want to be clear that I am NOT looking for the "right answer" or "wrong one", I am truly just interested in what others believe and why.

PaulSacramento wrote:Now, the question must be asked:
Why does God demand a sacrifice as atonement for sin?

Sacrifice is a means to show repentance. In OT times most people were fishermen, farmers, shepherds, who deeply cared for their livestock. To sacrifice one of them meant a great loss so God demanded a sacrifice of something loved to show greater love for God.

PaulSacramento wrote:Christ forgave sins without ANY need of a sacrifice, correct?

Correct. Not sure what your point is, Christ came to put an end to animal sacrifice. It would have been a little hypocritical to demand it himself.

RickD wrote:Byblos, I know this has been discussed here before. I guess I'm of the belief that it's spiritual death, that is the wages of sin. I believe God took away access to the tree of life, from Adam,(thereby ensuring physical death) as a blessing, not a punishment. Now that Adam had sinned, and was spiritually dead, living forever physically, while being spiritually dead, would have been horrible.

Just like I believe Romans 5 is referring to spiritual death, not physical.

I agree for the most part.

Regardless of that I am very interested as to why others believe the way they do about the Ransom, I just want to be clear that I am NOT looking for the "right answer" or "wrong one", I am truly just interested in what others believe and why.

Well, I think it's safe to say that I DON"T believe in the "ransom to the devil" theory.

RickD wrote:

Regardless of that I am very interested as to why others believe the way they do about the Ransom, I just want to be clear that I am NOT looking for the "right answer" or "wrong one", I am truly just interested in what others believe and why.

Well, I think it's safe to say that I DON"T believe in the "ransom to the devil" theory.

Neither do I.

Origen developed this theory and Augustine even held to it as well. See Quote from the Moody Hand Book of Theology below:

This theory was developed by Origen (a.d. 185-254), and it advocated that Satan held people captive as a victor in war. This theory, which was also held by Augustine, advocated that because Satan held people captive, a ransom had to be paid, not to God, but to Satan.

Enns, Paul P. The Moody Handbook of Theology, p. 312

Even today, there are people who think this aspect of the Ransom Theory is correct. This is one of the oldest but also the blindest (most ignorant) theories out there regarding this subject.

Other theories of the Atonement: Animal Sacrifice

The other aspect of the OT animal sacrifice was to point to the Messiah who would bear our sin disease away from us. One point of the OT animal sacrifices was the idea of carrying and bearing the disease of sin away from the people. Recall that someone had to lay hands on the sacrifice to carry over the sins of the people to an animal who would carry these away by means of death.

Look up the OT word Forgive (Stongs 5375 and used about 653 times in OT) and see that its use meant to carry away, lift up, bear away from, release…

So to forgive sins involve carrying away, lifting up, so as to bear away and release one from the consequences of sin. Now read the symbolism of what Jesus said in John 3:14, 15 and connect the dots.

Numbers 21:7 mentions – taking away the fiery serpents and Numbers 21:8 mentions – whoever looks upon what was lifted up shall live. Think about it…

The idea of the atonement was to bear up, carry away, and release people from the bondages of sin and death. The reason Jesus died on the cross was to expose what sin is and does and then release those that see themselves as they really are like from the bondage of sin and death that does what those people did that put Christ on the cross.

That is an act of love profound. Who would do such a thing for people who twist, warp things in such manner as to justify false witnessing, show trials, anger, envy, greed, selfishness, hate toward Goodness, and crucifying goodness, etc, all enacted in the 24 hour period before the crucifixion, and during the crucifixion. Jesus carried this away from those who believe in Him and to believe in the context of John 3:16 is to trust with your very life… into Christ’s hands so they are released from sin and are bore up to eternal life reconciled back to God’s goodness they once sought so hard to crucify.

The ransom was to bear those that believe (Trust the Lord with their very life) back into God’s goodness and grace which cleanses us who believe. The ransom was not paid to the devil or to God but to ransom us from the power of sin and death. Think about it – a Love that took humanities disdain and twisting of goodness, dying to expose it to release those subject to such sin and death hold upon their soul.

AMG Word Studies define Ransom - Strongs 3083

lútron; gen. lútrou, neut. noun from lúō (3089), to loose. Ransom or price paid for redeeming captives, loosing them from their bonds and setting them at liberty. In Mat 20:28 and Mar 10:45, it applies spiritually to the ransom paid by Christ for the delivering of men from the bondage of sin and death…

Mark 10:45, For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom (loosing, releasing into liberty) for many…

Interesting isn’t it?

Man still seeks to blame God in so many ways, yet, it is He who loosed us from sin and deaths hold by awakening us to our sins by his own actions upon a cross that exposes the real heart humanity toward God’s goodness. This is a message about true liberty from what enslaves us. This is a message about reconciliation such loosing beings. This is a message about life restored.

This is a message about so great of love that took the time to come as one of us, allow oneself to die a manner of death that exposes what sin is and does, in order to demonstrate that we most certainly can trust the Lord with our very lives who went to such great lengths to release those that believe in what He did from sin’s hold of death on their very lives.
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P. S.

Other Atonement/Ransom theories have our focus on God beating man up to pay for man’s sins when He could verbally forgive instead. Yet the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us to expose what is in our hearts, releasing us from that, so we can be released from it once and for all and find true life with God reconciled and restored because God first loved so that we can love in return unhindered, unbound to him.

He came as one of us and left a testimony that stands the test of time, culture, social/societal norms, geographic place, exposing why the human condition always seeks to slay, manipulate, twist goodness for its own ends – death. The work of the cross is despised for it reveals the human heart in such manner that reveals the need to be loosed from its endeavor.

It presents a choice when before there was none to either be set at liberty or remain as one is. It asks, do you trust God, the Lord Jesus Christ, the power of the Holy Spirit with your very life? The Lord who did a deed of love so profound just to reveal the need to be set free from sin and the death it brings upon relationships, what we do, and ourselves. God like that, you can Trust with your very life – do you believe?

Correct. Not sure what your point is, Christ came to put an end to animal sacrifice. It would have been a little hypocritical to demand it himself.

If Christ can forgive sins without a sacrifice ( a ransom paid) then why does God demand it?

I added a post script to my post above...

Other Atonement/Ransom theories have our focus on God beating man up to pay for man’s sins when He could verbally forgive instead. Yet the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us to expose what is in our hearts, releasing us from that, so we can be released from it once and for all and find true life with God reconciled and restored because God first loved so that we can love in return unhindered, unbound to him.

He came as one of us and left a testimony that stands the test of time, culture, social/societal norms, geographic place, exposing why the human condition always seeks to slay, manipulate, twist goodness for its own ends – death. The work of the cross is despised for it reveals the human heart in such manner that reveals the need to be loosed from its endeavor.

It presents a choice when before there was none to either be set at liberty or remain as one is. It asks, do you trust God, the Lord Jesus Christ, the power of the Holy Spirit with your very life? The Lord who did a deed of love so profound just to reveal the need to be set free from sin and the death it brings upon relationships, what we do, and ourselves. God like that, you can Trust with your very life – do you believe?

That was beautifully said.