Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:

No this has to do with how God views some sins versus others and about degrees of punishment that non believers have to suffer in hell. Do they all suffer the same torment for their sins or do some suffer more than others because their sins were more worse and or numerous than the sins of others?

B.W., if you're around, I'd love to hear your answer to this.

I am back from a short vacation and only now catching up on these matters. Been around these parts already. Most of these forms of arguments seek to wiggle one's self out of eternal consequences by twisting scriptures and word meanings. Take for example Matthew 10:38 and the word translated destruction implies being brought into a state of ruin, depravation, and not annihilation. The Denver Bronco’s were annihilated last season in their final game of the season – yet all the team members still exist. Were they really annihilated into non-existence? No – brought to ruin and depravation. Likewise, is how the word destruction is rendered in the bible.

As for sins – here is a spot from another recent thread line regarding this matter quoted with edits added in below:

Frogsterking wrote:Hello, recently I've been struggling with the concept of hell and how it reflects a loving God. Here are a few of my issues edited a bit:

1) Eternal punishment for limited sins. Is it fair to punish people eternally for sins they may commit during their short lifetime?

…. These questions have been answered on this forum before. To start things off -let's look at question one:

1) Eternal punishment for limited sins. Is it fair to punish people eternally for sins they may commit during their short lifetime?

Is sin really limited and finite? How can that be true for those created as an eternal being? ( See edited in part regarding this Eccl 3:11 is backed by verse 14 and elswhere in the bible as well too - even in Genesis 1:26-31 - Gen 2:7 Nehemiah 9:6 )

[So] How do you define sin?

The word translated sin in the bible contains the meaning of missing the mark or to twist away from or deviate away from. Therefore, it is the ability to try one’s best to avoid consequences for ones actions by twisting and distorting love, justice, mercy, truth, etc and etc. Sin is an attitude of the heart that corrupts due to its manipulating, conniving, devious manners that twist and distorts in order to get away with not being held accountable for one’s own actions. Much like how the first question attempts to do {edited added in – as does annihilationism also].

… AMG word Studies defines sin as follows:

From AMG Word Studies defines Sin from Greek as wrote:ἁμαρτάνω 264 Strongs

hamartánō; fut. hamartēsō, aor. hēmártēsa; 2d aor. hēmarton. To sin, to miss a mark on the way, not to hit the mark. One who keeps missing the mark in his relationship to God is hamartōlós (268), sinner.

(I) To err, swerve from the truth, go wrong, used in an absolute sense in 1Co 15:34, meaning to beware lest one be drawn into errors pertaining to faith, of which the Apostle is speaking (Tit3:11).

(II) To err in action, in respect to a prescribed law, i.e., to commit errors, to do wrong, sin.

(A) Generally, to sin, spoken of any sin, used in an absolute sense (Mat27:4; Joh5:14; Joh8:11; Joh9:2-3; Rom2:12; Rom3:23; Rom5:12, Rom5:14, Rom5:16; Rom6:15; 1Co 7:28, 1Co= 7:36; Eph 4:26; 1Tim 5:20; Heb 3:17; Heb 10:26; 1Pe 2:20; 2Pe 2:4; 1Jn1:10; 1Jn2:1; 1Jn3:6, 1Jn3:8-9; 1Jn5:16, 1Jn5:18. In 1Jn5:16, to sin a sin. Sept.: Exo 32:30; Lev 4:14, Lev 4:23, Lev 4:28).

(B) With eis (1519), unto, with the acc. to sin against anyone, to offend, wrong (Mat 18:15, Mat 18:21; Luke15:18, Luk 15:21; Luk 17:3-4; Acts 25:8; 1Co 6:18; 1Co 8:12; Sept.: Gen 20:6, Gen 20:9; Gen 43:9; 1Sam 2:25).

(C) To "sin before someone" means to do evil in the sight of anyone, to sin against, to wrong (Luke 15:21; Sept.: Gen 39:9; Deut 1:41; Deut 20:18; 1Sam7:6; 1Sam12:23; 1Sam 14:33-34). See hamartía ( 266), sin, which has many syn. listed; hamártēma (265), an individual deed or sin; anamártētos (361), without sin; proamartánō (G4258), to sin previously.

[ added this edited for you: See 2 Sa 14:14 –Ecclesiastes 3:11, 14, Ezekiel 26:20, Numbers 16:30, 33, Ezekiel 32:31, Job 26:4, 5, 6… Regarding God not taking away life and what happens after one dies found guilty before God.

God does not take away human life into a state of non-existence i.e., annihilation - as that is contrary to who and what he is: perfect and just in all his ways. To do so would also violate his promises, gifts, and callings to human being as well. Cause him to become subservient to man wishes as well too.

God will not deny himself. However, human beings try all manner of logic knowingly or unknowingly to have God do just that. Just as the doctrines of annihilationism and universalism attempt to do. Sin in the heart does indeed twist even God’s own word to get out of a jam in so many ways that even great lengths are used to distort the truth Jesus spoke about in Luke 16:19-31c.

Lastly, for Jesus to truly have tasted death for every person, he would have to been annihilated into non-existence for annihilation to be correct – Note - Heb 2:9 KJV – how could he really taste death for everyone, pay the penalty for sins and avoid annihilation if annihilationism actually is a part of death?

"But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might (Greek work means - should - or mightly) taste death for everyone." Hebrews 2:9 NASB]

@B.W
i never stated that when someone dies they are instantly annihilated spiritually which seems to me how you think i am coming off and one thing i would like to point out to you is that i never said i was 100% correct in my view ever. i said i could see both sides so how am i twisting scripture? one side living separated from God as being the second death and two the second death being the literal death of your soul and both taking place after the white throne judgement note the key words "after the white throne judgment" not after death. i have read enough scripture to see both sides of the argument and if you hold to eternal punishment and separation from God as Hell then that's fine i can see that but i can also see the second death being spiritual death too. In the end God is the righteous judge in this matter and if saying that God annihilating someones soul makes Him go against His character to me makes no sense and the same argument can be said concerning your views. imo it can go either way and ultimately it is His call. No hard feelings cuz normally when reading your posts i agree with the majority of things you say and respect your knowledge of the scriptures. when i read comments saying im "distorting truth" that makes me feel you view me as dumb or unlearned in the scriptures.

Zionist wrote:@B.W
i never stated that when someone dies they are instantly annihilated spiritually which seems to me how you think i am coming off and one thing i would like to point out to you is that i never said i was 100% correct in my view ever. i said i could see both sides so how am i twisting scripture? one side living separated from God as being the second death and two the second death being the literal death of your soul and both taking place after the white throne judgement note the key words "after the white throne judgment" not after death. i have read enough scripture to see both sides of the argument and if you hold to eternal punishment and separation from God as Hell then that's fine i can see that but i can also see the second death being spiritual death too. In the end God is the righteous judge in this matter and if saying that God annihilating someones soul makes Him go against His character to me makes no sense and the same argument can be said concerning your views. imo it can go either way and ultimately it is His call. No hard feelings cuz normally when reading your posts i agree with the majority of things you say and respect your knowledge of the scriptures. when i read comments saying im "distorting truth" that makes me feel you view me as dumb or unlearned in the scriptures.

My apologies Zionist, I really was not addressing you but rather several of the others who posted on the thread. Some, whom debated with, in the past on this forum. You do bring up a good point and I’ll add to it – that is a good reason to study the original languages and how words were used: really not hard to do with all the new books and software out there these days.

I’ll leave the next part below, not for you but the others to ponder and do his or her personal research on:

John 3:15 states the phrase – may have eternal life.

Robertson Word Pictures, for example brings out the original Greek of the text as:

Robertson Word Pictures quoted below wrote:John 3:15

That whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life (hina pas ho pisteuōn en autōi echēi zōēn aiōnion). Final use of hina with present active subjunctive of echō, that he may keep on having eternal life (a frequent phrase in John, always in John aiōnios occurs with zōē, 16 times in the Gospel, 6 in 1 John, ageless or endless life, beginning now and lasting forever).

It is more than endless, for it is sharing in the life of God in Christ (John 5:26; John 17:3; 1 John 5:12). So here en autōi (in him) is taken with echēi rather than with pisteuōn. The interview with Nicodemus apparently closes with John 3:15. In John 3:16-21 we have past tenses constantly as is natural for the reflection of John, but unnatural for Jesus speaking. There are phrases like the Prologue (John 3:19; John 1:9-11). “Only begotten” does not occur elsewhere in the words of Jesus, but is in John1:14, John 1:18; 1John 4:9. John often puts in explanatory comments (John 1:16-18; John12:37-41).…

Keep on having eternal life – in the context of John 3:14-21 means keep on sharing life with God. In other words, life restored that is at one with God again. Healing the broken fellowship between God and man – death penalty for sin paid for, etc and etc… Speaks of reconciliation and restoration a returning back to God through what Christ accomplished alone (i.e. by Believing in Him as He stated to do).

Jesus is not saying that human beings never had eternal life endowed at birth – but rather that, due to sin/rebellion, that sinful life and its eternal consequences can be eradicated thru what Jesus did upon the cross and resurrection so that a person can once again begin to experience life with/shared with God that was lost by Adam. We who are believers in Christ, are ministers of reconciliation are we not?

Many annihilationists I have spoken with and books I read by prominent spokespersons contend that Jesus meant part of this but then add that eternal life means no one ever had eternal life or was endowed with it beginning at birth.

That is not what Jesus was saying. Jesus was saying to - keep on having life eternal – albeit this time shared with God. Jesus is implying a choice to those hearing the text: Eternal Life with God, or eternal life without God that faces His wrath (John 3:36). This is backed up by other scriptures that state eternal punishment verses eternal life as well with many parts of the OT as well such as Dan 12:2…

The bible says what it says. It also states that God will not deny himself and that He is all that He says He is and true to Himself. He gave human beings life. Though, due to sin/rebellion the mortal Bios dies, the spiritual part of human beings continue on, forever. God’s justice, righteousness, equity, is so far above our own, that we only can but attain a micro glimpse of these attributes of His.

Now, if John 3:15-16c stated that one has eternal Bios (St 979) instead of eternal Zoe (st 2222), then what the annihilationist contend would have merit. Words do have meanings and the context and usages of the word help narrow the meaning of a word properly.

Now back to the topic of Sin:

Sin is not limited to acts such as stealing a candy bar but rather the attitude of the human heart that twist and warps it ways away from the truth, from God’s ways, and from obeying God. It does so in so many ways just as the Lord reveals in Jeremiah 17:9, 10, 11c.

By the light of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit, a person can be awaked to understand what sin is and does. It is not pretty to look at and for some, hard to come to terms with. However, with God’s help, we, as believers in Christ do have God’s Grace to live the 1 John 1:9 life when sin is exposed. The question remains, will we owe up to it that we often err and twist things in our lives into many messes? How are we trying to wiggle ourselves out of consequences for our actions to appease our own soulish-bios-conscience?

It is best to surrender to the Lord and live the 1 John 1:9 way. That simple act of obeying the Lord straightens many things out in our lives.

That was the point I was trying to convey to others sharing on this forum’s thread line, and not to Zionist. So I again apologize to Zionist for the missunderstanding and ask for your forgiveness.
-
-
-

B. W. wrote:
I am back from a short vacation and only now catching up on these matters. Been around these parts already. Most of these forms of arguments seek to wiggle one's self out of eternal consequences by twisting scriptures and word meanings. Take for example Matthew 10:38 and the word translated destruction implies being brought into a state of ruin, depravation, and not annihilation. The Denver Bronco’s were annihilated last season in their final game of the season – yet all the team members still exist. Were they really annihilated into non-existence? No – brought to ruin and depravation. Likewise, is how the word destruction is rendered in the bible.

Annihilated means "to make into nothing", hence the inclusion of "nihil" which means nothing. Saying the Denver Bronco's were annihilated is more of a figure of speech because they weren't actually made into nothing, which the word means.

Annihilated means "to make into nothing", hence the inclusion of "nihil" which means nothing. Saying the Denver Bronco's were annihilated is more of a figure of speech because they weren't actually made into nothing, which the word means.

Are you referring to what the Patriots did to the Broncos, in the playoffs last season? Please don't bring that up, because B.W. has recurring nightmares about that one.

RickD wrote:

Annihilated means "to make into nothing", hence the inclusion of "nihil" which means nothing. Saying the Denver Bronco's were annihilated is more of a figure of speech because they weren't actually made into nothing, which the word means.

Are you referring to what the Patriots did to the Broncos, in the playoffs last season? Please don't bring that up, because B.W. has recurring nightmares about that one.

Lol. Well, I was referring to the example he used himself:

B. W. wrote: I am back from a short vacation and only now catching up on these matters. Been around these parts already. Most of these forms of arguments seek to wiggle one's self out of eternal consequences by twisting scriptures and word meanings. Take for example Matthew 10:38 and the word translated destruction implies being brought into a state of ruin, depravation, and not annihilation. The Denver Bronco’s were annihilated last season in their final game of the season – yet all the team members still exist. Were they really annihilated into non-existence? No – brought to ruin and depravation. Likewise, is how the word destruction is rendered in the bible.

RickD wrote:

Annihilated means "to make into nothing", hence the inclusion of "nihil" which means nothing. Saying the Denver Bronco's were annihilated is more of a figure of speech because they weren't actually made into nothing, which the word means.

Are you referring to what the Patriots did to the Broncos, in the playoffs last season? Please don't bring that up, because B.W. has recurring nightmares about that one.

Ahh that word of knowledge - get's ya everytime!



Was going to use the Big Blue but....

Was going to use the Big Blue but....

Please, B.W. Don't go there. I still wake up in the middle of the night, in a cold sweat, just thinking about that...

@ B.W.
no worries man and you didn't have to apologize but i do appreciate your kindness and accept your apology. I should have asked you first if you were addressing me or not instead of assuming you did so in that regard i apologize to you. i can definitely see your point reading your posts and i can see it the way i have come to understand it so maybe this is something that God knows i am still unsure about. Maybe i need to keep this in prayer and continue to study this. thnx for helping me to remember to examine everything carefully and hold fast to that which is good. 1st Thessalonians 5:21

Zionist wrote:@ B.W. no worries man and you didn't have to apologize but i do appreciate your kindness and accept your apology. I should have asked you first if you were addressing me or not instead of assuming you did so in that regard i apologize to you. i can definitely see your point reading your posts and i can see it the way i have come to understand it so maybe this is something that God knows i am still unsure about. Maybe i need to keep this in prayer and continue to study this. thnx for helping me to remember to examine everything carefully and hold fast to that which is good. 1st Thessalonians 5:21

No worries Zionist!

God bless!
-
-
-

The Word of God proclaims in James 2:10 that committing even ONE SIN makes a person GUILTY in God's eyes of breaking every command in the Bible.

In the eyes of men, murdering someone is obviously worse than stealing their lunch; but as far as God is concerned we are all equally lacking any righteousness of our own. We are each as dirty and rotten as the other guy. Oftentimes what people perceive as acceptable, such as homosexuality, is an abomination unto God. If we SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES as Jesus commanded in John 5:39, then we can only come to the conclusion that we are as sinful as the worst sinner in God's eyes and it matters not who is more guilty. We are all guilty (Romans 3:10,23). The fact of the matter is that we are all sinners deserving of punishment in Hell (Romans 6:23; Revelation 20:11-15). Although we may never commit murder or rob a bank, that does not make us any less guilty of being a horrible sinner in the eyes of God.

May I say, no matter how righteous I may try to live, the ONLY reason why I will ever be righteous is because of the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. Jesus paid my sin debt, and He alone is my righteousness. I have no righteousness to offer God, and neither do you.

People tend to selfishly judge themselves based upon what sins they personally DON'T commit. The Bible perfectly illustrates this in Jesus' account of the Pharisee and the publican who went up to the temple to pray...

“Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted” (Luke 18:10-14).

The Pharisee in Luke 18:10-14 made the grave mistake of comparing himself with other people, instead of measuring himself up against the holy Law of God. If we foolishly look at other people who commit worse sins than we do, then we naturally become self-righteousness and think we are "better" than that person. I tell you, you are as filthy and rotten as Adolf Hitler in God's eyes, and so am I...

“But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away” (Isaiah 64:6).

Would to God that Christians in churches today would stop saying, "he has sinned," or "she has sinned," and that we'd all start saying, "we have sinned." It is sinful pride that causes a wife to publicly criticize or divorce her husband. It is sinful pride that causes the manure spreading newsmedia to mercilessly destroy people's lives. It is sinful pride that causes children to broadcast their parent's dirty laundry to others. It is sinful pride that causes self-righteous hypocrites to meddle in other people's marriages. I came to the realization one day as a believer that I am as rotten and sinful as the worst sinner. I am just as sinful as any adulterer, mass-murderer, homosexual, thief, liar or Satan worshipper. My sins are just as woeful and wrong. I have no room to condemn.

The Apostle Paul realized this great truth...

“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief” (1st Timothy 1:15).

The Apostle Paul was a faithful missionary, who loved the Lord Jesus Christ and helped people everywhere he went. Paul suffered horribly from shipwreck, hunger, turmoil and malicious beatings from his enemies; yet he kept going for God. Paul was a mighty preacher and a strong Christian. Although Paul was arguably the greatest missionary who ever lived, he still addressed himself as the "chief of sinners." I don't know too many believers today who are anywhere near as dedicated and committed to Jesus Christ as was Paul. If a good Christian like Paul esteemed himself as the "chief of sinners," then we ought to feel the same way.

Would to God that more believers today would realize the extent of their wickedness in the eyes of God. We are a sorry bunch. Our only hope is the precious Lord Jesus Christ and the salvation that He freely offers to us, paid for by His own shed blood...

“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot” (1st Peter 1:18,19).

If it weren't for the literal precious blood of Jesus Christ, we'd all be doomed to the Lake of Fire. God is a good God... “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). Amen!

One day I had preached a rip-snortin', shingle-pullin', window-rattlin', hell-fire and damnation sermon to a group of about 80 people in Chicago. After the sermon I stepped outside for some fresh air. I glanced over and noticed a gentleman smoking. He felt embarrassed and said, “I'm sorry reverend for smoking in front of you.” I replied, “I preach against sin from the pulpit; but away from the pulpit I'm just as much a sinner as anyone else. You're in good company friend. You need not apologize.” He had wrongly esteemed that he was a bigger sinner than me; but I am the biggest sinner I know. If you want to see the biggest sinner, then just look in the mirror. You and I are as guilty of sin as anyone else.

Job 20:4-5, “Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth, That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment?”

Sin is more than just single finite acts, one could also add in a definition that sin involves an internal attitude of moral twisting used to justify oneself and actions, or dominate/control, etc and etc.

That is but one reason why sin within an eternal being is eternal and not finite because one would keep on committing sinning acts.
-
-
-

Anything that is NOT faith is Sin.

zacchaeus wrote:Anything that is NOT faith is Sin.

Pepperoni pizza is not faith. Is pepperoni pizza sin?

Depends... Do you have faith lol