Evidence for God from Science

1over137 wrote:

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:To all those who truly search for God - whatever their idolatry - God will find them and make Himself known to them. There are examples of this in the Scriptures! From memory: Ruth the Moabitess, Naaman the Syrian, the widow of Zarephath, the righteous Centurion...

And what about those who do not truly search for God? Is it their fault that they do not truly search for God? Some of my atheist friends had bad experience with 'Christians' when they were children. And not seeing the right example of true Christianity, well ...

If they were truly searching for God they would be able to see past human frailty's and see God for what he is which is what we are not.

Dan

1over137 wrote:
And what about those who do not truly search for God? Is it their fault that they do not truly search for God? Some of my atheist friends had bad experience with 'Christians' when they were children. And not seeing the right example of true Christianity, well ...

Yes it is their fault and they will be judged on that and found guilty. The judgement of the unsaved is described in Rev 20:11-15. Searching for God has nothing to do with ''bad experiences with 'Christians'.''

Romans 1, 2 and 3 condemns the whole human race: first, the heathen who have never heard of God and don't search for Him; second, Israel who were entrusted with the very words of God and from whom God's prophets came, yet rejected Him; and, thirdly, the Gentiles who amassed great learning yet blinded themselves to the evidence of God's existence.

All are guilty, all are without excuse.

FL

Why, I am humbled by the sheer arrogance of some of these remarks.
As one atheist said to me when he heard similar things like what has been written here: "Why on Earth would I want to believe in a God like that?"
I will never persume to decide WHO and HOW God will judge the world, regardless of what has been written in the bible.
I would never condem another human with such a "cvavalier attitude".
Do I believe that non-believers will get a "second chance" after death?
I believe that GOD through Christ will decide when and how God decides and would never be so presumptuous as to make that call myself.

I know one atheist that was abused as a JW and the fact was covered up, when he spoke up he was thrown out and shunned by his own family and friends and in his pain he became an atheist because he did not find a loving God no matter how much he looked ( and for anyone to even insinuate that he did look hard enough or in the right way, such a person should NOT comment since they do NOT know and would be clearly judging matter they no nothing about).
To think that this man would be condemmend by God is to agree with those atheists that view a God like that as a petty and distant tyrant with less love than the average human.

Looking back on my post I was a bit rude and I apologize, rough morning.
Please forgive me my brothers, I didn't mean to sound so "aggressive".
What I am simply stating is MY belief that God gives ALL people a chance to repent, that is simply what I am stating.
I realize that some think those chances come only in this life and after death, that's it.
I don't believe that, since that would have condemend so many people through out history, arguably even the likes of Moses and such since he did NOT know about Christ.
As 1Timothy4:10 states:
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

I believe that in our fallen state, many will die NOT knowing Our beloved Lord and saviour, and many for no true fault of their own.
I can't believe that Christ and Gos who have suffered so much for us all, would not open their love to those also.
Of course, what those people then do is up to them.

PaulSacramento wrote:Why, I am humbled by the sheer arrogance of some of these remarks.
As one atheist said to me when he heard similar things like what has been written here: "Why on Earth would I want to believe in a God like that?"
I will never persume to decide WHO and HOW God will judge the world, regardless of what has been written in the bible.
I would never condem another human with such a "cvavalier attitude".
Do I believe that non-believers will get a "second chance" after death?
I believe that GOD through Christ will decide when and how God decides and would never be so presumptuous as to make that call myself.

I know one atheist that was abused as a JW and the fact was covered up, when he spoke up he was thrown out and shunned by his own family and friends and in his pain he became an atheist because he did not find a loving God no matter how much he looked ( and for anyone to even insinuate that he did look hard enough or in the right way, such a person should NOT comment since they do NOT know and would be clearly judging matter they no nothing about).
To think that this man would be condemmend by God is to agree with those atheists that view a God like that as a petty and distant tyrant with less love than the average human.

Why God didn't simply sacrifice Christ up in heaven and in secret is beyond me. If this is the case, then it is in everyone's best interest that all Christians simply keep God and Christ's sacrifice a secret. More people will accept God and His grace after death and in His very presence anyway.
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PaulSacramento wrote: ... and in his pain he became an atheist because he did not find a loving God ...

This I also had in my mind but did not say explicitly.

BavarianWheels wrote: Why God didn't simply sacrifice Christ up in heaven and in secret is beyond me.

Couldn't it be because He wanted people to realize how spoiled they are? You know, people were killing each other and it did not move with them. But to kill an innocent person, to kill God?

BavarianWheels wrote: If this is the case, then it is in everyone's best interest that all Christians simply keep God and Christ's sacrifice a secret.

Why it would be in everyone's best interest that all Christians keep God and Christ's sacrifice a secret?

1over137 wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:If this is the case, then it is in everyone's best interest that all Christians simply keep God and Christ's sacrifice a secret.

Why it would be in everyone's best interest that all Christians keep God and Christ's sacrifice a secret?

PaulSacramento wrote:Do I believe that non-believers will get a "second chance" after death?
I believe that GOD through Christ will decide when and how God decides and would never be so presumptuous as to make that call myself.

PaulS seems to suggest or believe that there is salvation afforded after death. I would disagree.

2 Corinthians 6:1,2 wrote:As God's fellow workers we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain. For he says,

"In the time of my favor I heard you,
and in the day of salvation I helped you."
I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.

If salvation was afforded after death...why even have a plan of salvation to target the living?
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Yes, I am suggesting that there may still be a chance for salvation after death, at the resurrection and final judgment.
I also believe that at the time of death we will "see" God and will know God and will have a choice.
I also admit this may be "wishful thinking", not wanting ANYONE to be lost.

PaulSacramento wrote:Yes, I am suggesting that there may still be a chance for salvation after death, at the resurrection and final judgment.
I also believe that at the time of death we will "see" God and will know God and will have a choice.
I also admit this may be "wishful thinking", not wanting ANYONE to be lost.

I'm sure God feels the same in not wanting anyone to be lost...however God is Just and no amount of wishful thinking, even on God's part, can save anyone apart from Justice. If He could...Christ died for nothing.
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BavarianWheels wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Yes, I am suggesting that there may still be a chance for salvation after death, at the resurrection and final judgment.
I also believe that at the time of death we will "see" God and will know God and will have a choice.
I also admit this may be "wishful thinking", not wanting ANYONE to be lost.

I'm sure God feels the same in not wanting anyone to be lost...however God is Just and no amount of wishful thinking, even on God's part, can save anyone apart from Justice. If He could...Christ died for nothing.
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I am obviously NOT a Calvinist.
I believe that Christ died for us ALL, for us ALL to have the opportunity to KNOW the TRUE God.
I can't fathom a God that condemns those that haven't had the chance to know Him or have been twisted and pushed away by what MAN has done to His Word.
I may be wrong but hope that I am not.
Where is the justice in the condeming of an ignorant man or a misguided man when God "requires mercy and not sacrifice", when God is a God of Mercy and love?
Would anyone one of us condem our Child knowing that the child has NOT know our Love?
How can God?

PaulSacramento wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Yes, I am suggesting that there may still be a chance for salvation after death, at the resurrection and final judgment.
I also believe that at the time of death we will "see" God and will know God and will have a choice.
I also admit this may be "wishful thinking", not wanting ANYONE to be lost.

I'm sure God feels the same in not wanting anyone to be lost...however God is Just and no amount of wishful thinking, even on God's part, can save anyone apart from Justice. If He could...Christ died for nothing.

I am obviously NOT a Calvinist.
I believe that Christ died for us ALL, for us ALL to have the opportunity to KNOW the TRUE God.
I can't fathom a God that condemns those that haven't had the chance to know Him or have been twisted and pushed away by what MAN has done to His Word.
I may be wrong but hope that I am not.
Where is the justice in the condeming of an ignorant man or a misguided man when God "requires mercy and not sacrifice", when God is a God of Mercy and love?
Would anyone one of us condem our Child knowing that the child has NOT know our Love?
How can God?

I'll bet you can't fathom why the wages of sin is death...but it is what it is.

We are told, "Ask and it will be given, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened..." But your hope is that this be a lie?
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I certainly understand what you're saying, Paul. I just don't know what will happen to those who haven't had a chance to accept or reject Christ. I have a difficult time believing that first, all people hear the gospel before they die. And, second, those that haven't heard the good news, are automatically on their way to hell. I just can't say that those who haven't heard of Jesus Christ, are eternally doomed, without a chance to reject God. Again, I believe this gets back to what one believes about the nature of God. I'm just leaving room for the possibility that God, in His unmerited love, will give all people a chance to accept Him. Even those, for whatever reason, haven't heard the gospel before they die. Is it possible that anyone that hasn't accepted Christ, even those who haven't heard the gospel, are doomed to hell? Sure, that's possible. Then my belief about the nature of God, and His love, is wrong. Maybe that's what FL would call a "Froot Loop" theology. BTW, Froot Loops is my favorite cereal.

RickD wrote:I certainly understand what you're saying, Paul. I just don't know what will happen to those who haven't had a chance to accept or reject Christ. I have a difficult time believing that first, all people hear the gospel before they die. And, second, those that haven't heard the good news, are automatically on their way to hell. I just can't say that those who haven't heard of Jesus Christ, are eternally doomed, without a chance to reject God. Again, I believe this gets back to what one believes about the nature of God. I'm just leaving room for the possibility that God, in His unmerited love, will give all people a chance to accept Him. Even those, for whatever reason, haven't heard the gospel before they die. Is it possible that anyone that hasn't accepted Christ, even those who haven't heard the gospel, are doomed to hell? Sure, that's possible. Then my belief about the nature of God, and His love, is wrong. Maybe that's what FL would call a "Froot Loop" theology. BTW, Froot Loops is my favorite cereal.

Salvation is first and foremost a legal action brought about by love. We are declared righteous through Christ's death, not through God's love. If it was the latter, God wouldn't have had to die.

Luke 19:40 wrote:"I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

Psalm 19:1 wrote: The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

There is no excuse...apparently.
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BavarianWheels wrote:

Salvation is first and foremost a legal action brought about by love. We are declared righteous through Christ's death, not through God's love. If it was the latter, God wouldn't have had to die.

Again, this gets back to how one sees the nature of God. I certainly don't see salvation as "first and foremost" a legal action. I see salvation as a gift to all mankind, by a loving God. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a] only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

We are declared righteous through Christ's work. And Christ's work was done for us, because of God's love for us. God loved us so much, that He died for us. You can't have the death, without the love.

RickD wrote:BavarianWheels wrote:

Salvation is first and foremost a legal action brought about by love. We are declared righteous through Christ's death, not through God's love. If it was the latter, God wouldn't have had to die.

Again, this gets back to how one sees the nature of God. I certainly don't see salvation as "first and foremost" a legal action. I see salvation as a gift to all mankind, by a loving God. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a] only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

We are declared righteous through Christ's work. And Christ's work was done for us, because of God's love for us. God loved us so much, that He died for us. You can't have the death, without the love.

I would agree, however for salvation to work, it must be legal. If the Law demands perfection, then perfection is only what satisfies the Law...else why would Christ/God have to die? If it was any death, then God wouldn't have had to die Himself. He legally took on our punishment that we wouldn't have to. Legally...first, but through love as the catalyst for the action.

Notice that God loved the world, gave His son and belief is necessary for salvation. It's a legal process. That's why the bible speaks of contracts, wills, covenants, Law demands, breaking of Law, wages of sin, punishment...these are all legal terms.
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