Evidence for God from Science

twinc wrote:would you then settle for Jesus is Yahweh - twinc

That would depend on who you think Yahweh is.
If Yahweh is the name of God, the God that is Father, Son and HS, sure.
If Yahweh is the creator God that Jesus called "The Father" then no, Jesus can't be Yahweh and that is the thing that must be made clear - Who is Yahweh?
God? or the name given to God, The Father as distinct from the Son and the HS.

PaulSacramento wrote:

twinc wrote:would you then settle for Jesus is Yahweh - twinc

That would depend on who you think Yahweh is.
If Yahweh is the name of God, the God that is Father, Son and HS, sure.
If Yahweh is the creator God that Jesus called "The Father" then no, Jesus can't be Yahweh and that is the thing that must be made clear - Who is Yahweh?
God? or the name given to God, The Father as distinct from the Son and the HS.

I have already posed this question and answered it at the same time - so repeat "is the Yahweh of the burning bush the Yahweh that was before Abraham" - twinc

I was speaking in General terms, not to you in specififc.
I mean that anytime one asks this question one has to be sure what the definition is.
Is Christ God? Is he Jehovah/Yahweh?
It all depends on WHO a person thinks YHWH is.
But IMHO, the WORD of God is Christ and it is through Christ that God the Father communicates so, ANYTIME in the OT we read that God communicated to anyone, it was the WORD of God, ie: Jesus ( Or Jaheshua if you prefer).

twinc wrote:would you then settle for Jesus is Yahweh - twinc

Yes, Jesus is known as YHWH.

In the OT beginning with Moses the Father, Son, Holy Spirit were called by the same name: YHWH. Before that, the Son YHWH was known as El Shaddai.

Exodus 6:3, "...and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD (YHWH), I did not make Myself known to them..."
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B. W. wrote:

twinc wrote:would you then settle for Jesus is Yahweh - twinc

Yes, Jesus is known as YHWH.

In the OT beginning with Moses the Father, Son, Holy Spirit were called by the same name: YHWH. Before that, the Son YHWH was known as El Shaddai.

Exodus 6:3, "...and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD (YHWH), I did not make Myself known to them..."
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Interesting, I didn't know there was a time distinction. So we wouldn't be false if we simply said Yahveh each time, in a sense? Would that have been the thought of the first Christians, who were Jews? Since God is trinitarian, all three are God. I've noticed that typically in English we tend to refer to the Father as "God", the Son as "Jesus", and the Spirt as "Holy Spirt (or Ghost)", but don't always say, "God was nailed to a cross", even though it is true, we just have a hard time wrapping our minds around the fact that Jesus is of the same Being as the Father. I marvel at the idea, myself.

Callisto wrote:

B. W. wrote:

twinc wrote:would you then settle for Jesus is Yahweh - twinc

Yes, Jesus is known as YHWH.

In the OT beginning with Moses the Father, Son, Holy Spirit were called by the same name: YHWH. Before that, the Son YHWH was known as El Shaddai.

Exodus 6:3, "...and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD (YHWH), I did not make Myself known to them..."
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Interesting, I didn't know there was a time distinction. So we wouldn't be false if we simply said Yahveh each time, in a sense? Would that have been the thought of the first Christians, who were Jews? Since God is trinitarian, all three are God. I've noticed that typically in English we tend to refer to the Father as "God", the Son as "Jesus", and the Spirt as "Holy Spirt (or Ghost)", but don't always say, "God was nailed to a cross", even though it is true, we just have a hard time wrapping our minds around the fact that Jesus is of the same Being as the Father. I marvel at the idea, myself.

Yes you can rightly say YHWH each time and in fact, through the context, you can even identify the speaker in the OT. It takes a little practice, and knowledge of the bible to do so. Jesus in the NT, reveal what was shown the patriarchs and Moses about the nature of the Godhead.

YHWH is translated as LORD (all Caps) in our English bibles. Adoni is Lord. Unfortunately, the generic words for God in Hebrew, El, Elohim, and HaElohim are combined without distinction to read as God. Using good bible computer software, you can use that to draw a circle of color around to color code ‘God’ to mark the use of El, Elohim, and HaElohim in the bible you read. Slow going but worth evey chapter to do this - computer to your bible. I use a green circle for HaElohim, a Black ink Circle for EL and leave Elohim as it is. This way you can begin to explore more.

Then there are the words associated to El, Elohim, and HaElohim such as El-Shaddai, El-yon, and use of personal pronouns (Him, He, I, My, Mine, etc). As you note this, you notice YHWH is often speaking in third person, or even second person speech, and speak of himself like that as well. From this, you can begin to see who is speaking.

For example – I took Isaiah 48 and 49 and did this but for you all I’ll pick a few verses. Next to proper names and pronouns I placed who was speaking - Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Notice the thrid person speach used in and out of... LORD is in caps and is the word YHWH...

Isa 48:17 Thus saith the LORD (YHWH-Father), thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: I am the LORD (YHWH) thy God (Elohim - Majestic Plural One: Father, Son, Holy Spirit) ... JPS

This identifies the Father as in Covenant with the Jewish people. Why, redemption beings with the Father. Jesus said this in effect in the Gospels… 48:17 identifies the Father speaking and next note a change in chapter 49 verse 1 for example: Then the use of me – hmmm - note context as it helps identify the speaker…Keep reading...as there is a swtich in chapter 48 that kicks in in chapter 49

Isa 49:1 "Listen, O coastlands, to Me (Son), And take heed, you peoples from afar! The LORD (YHWH - Father) has called Me (Son) from the womb; From the matrix of My (Son’s) mother (refer’s to Mary) He (the Father) has made mention of My name.

In the bible He, the Father, does so in Isaiah 9:6 and Isaiah 7:14

Isa 49:2 And He (Father) has made My mouth like a sharp sword; In the shadow of His (the Father's) hand He (Father) has hidden Me (Son), And made Me (Son) a polished shaft; In His (Father) quiver He (Father) has hidden Me."

Note Revelation 19:15, 16 and John 8:42 and Isa 53:1

Isa 49:3 "And He (Father) said to me (Son), 'You (Son) are My servant, O Israel, In whom I (Father) will be glorified.' (Note John 12:28-29)

Isa 49:4 Then I (Son) said, 'I (Son) have labored in vain, I (Son) have spent my strength for nothing and in vain; Yet surely my just reward is with the LORD (YHWH - Father), And my work with my God (Elohim used - Father – Holy Spirit).' "

Isa 49:5 "And now the LORD (YHWH - Holy Spirit) says, Who formed Me (Son) from the womb to be His (Fathers’) Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him (Father), So that Israel is gathered to Him {Father} (For I {SON} shall be glorious in the eyes of the LORD (Father), And My God (Elohim - Holy Spirit and Father) shall be My strength)...

Please Note: Luke 1:35c Mark 1:10 as well as the words of John 17 and elsewhere Jesus spoke of the Father and himself. Also in text notice the uses of the Pronouns used and the He, I, Me, My are all still YHWH speaking. Here in next verse you have the Holy Spirit speaking and saying the Father says...

Isa 49:6 Indeed He (Father) says, 'It is too small a thing that You (Son) should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I (the Father) will also give You (the Son) as a light to the Gentiles, That You (Son) should be My (the Father’s) salvation to the ends of the earth.' "

Now the Father speaks…as he is the Redeemer of Israel, their Holy One…

Isa 49:7 Thus says the LORD (YHWH - Father), The Redeemer of Israel, their Holy One, To Him (Son) whom man despises, To Him (Son) whom the nation abhors, To the Servant of rulers: "Kings shall see and arise, Princes also shall worship, Because of the LORD (Father) who is faithful, The Holy One of Israel; And He (Father) has chosen You (Son)." NKJV

This is an advanced lesson but from it, take a peak and ask yourself why is God speaking in third person in these verse and out from it again (Verses 5-6 for example)?
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Callisto wrote:

B. W. wrote:

twinc wrote:would you then settle for Jesus is Yahweh - twinc

Yes, Jesus is known as YHWH.

In the OT beginning with Moses the Father, Son, Holy Spirit were called by the same name: YHWH. Before that, the Son YHWH was known as El Shaddai.

Exodus 6:3, "...and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD (YHWH), I did not make Myself known to them..."
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Interesting, I didn't know there was a time distinction. So we wouldn't be false if we simply said Yahveh each time, in a sense? Would that have been the thought of the first Christians, who were Jews? Since God is trinitarian, all three are God. I've noticed that typically in English we tend to refer to the Father as "God", the Son as "Jesus", and the Spirt as "Holy Spirt (or Ghost)", but don't always say, "God was nailed to a cross", even though it is true, we just have a hard time wrapping our minds around the fact that Jesus is of the same Being as the Father. I marvel at the idea, myself.

And I think that is still what causes issues with the Trinity doctrine, the whole notion that we have as humans that ONE being is ONE.
The anaology with cerebrus, the 3-headed hound from Greek mythology, is a good one ( One being but 3 individual personalities) or even a siamese twin BUT those tend tomake us visualize a MATERIAL being and that isn't what God is and that is the first thing we must grasp - God is NOT material so the material contraints of the physical world do NOT and have NEVER applied to Him.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Callisto wrote:

B. W. wrote:

twinc wrote:would you then settle for Jesus is Yahweh - twinc

Yes, Jesus is known as YHWH.

In the OT beginning with Moses the Father, Son, Holy Spirit were called by the same name: YHWH. Before that, the Son YHWH was known as El Shaddai.

Exodus 6:3, "...and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD (YHWH), I did not make Myself known to them..."
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Interesting, I didn't know there was a time distinction. So we wouldn't be false if we simply said Yahveh each time, in a sense? Would that have been the thought of the first Christians, who were Jews? Since God is trinitarian, all three are God. I've noticed that typically in English we tend to refer to the Father as "God", the Son as "Jesus", and the Spirt as "Holy Spirt (or Ghost)", but don't always say, "God was nailed to a cross", even though it is true, we just have a hard time wrapping our minds around the fact that Jesus is of the same Being as the Father. I marvel at the idea, myself.

And I think that is still what causes issues with the Trinity doctrine, the whole notion that we have as humans that ONE being is ONE.
The anaology with cerebrus, the 3-headed hound from Greek mythology, is a good one ( One being but 3 individual personalities) or even a siamese twin BUT those tend tomake us visualize a MATERIAL being and that isn't what God is and that is the first thing we must grasp - God is NOT material so the material contraints of the physical world do NOT and have NEVER applied to Him.

The CRAM website uses the Water, Steam, and Ice analogy to help people grasp the idea of the orthodox Christian doctrine of the Trinity. All three, Water, Steam, and Ice are of one essence of H2o but each is unique and all have differing properties.

http://carm.org/christianity/christian- ... ok-trinity

http://carm.org/trinity

In the bible God does tell us that there is ‘None Like Him’ and that is profoundly true.
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P.S. Here is more on Isa 49:4 Then I (Son) said, 'I (Son) have labored in vain, I (Son) have spent my strength for nothing and in vain; Yet surely my just reward is with the LORD (YHWH - Father), And my work with my God (Elohim used - Father – Holy Spirit).' "

Please note Psalms 22:1-21 and what happenend just before Jesus gave his life on the cross... and compare to the above passage... interesting isn't it?

Then note this verse: Isa 49:6 Indeed He (Father) says, 'It is too small a thing that You (Son) should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I (the Father) will also give You (the Son) as a light to the Gentiles, That You (Son) should be My (the Father’s) salvation to the ends of the earth.' "

And what Psalms 22:22-31 says...

Moses is called Elohim, so he must be God

1stjohn0666 wrote:Moses is called Elohim, so he must be God

What does the Bible say on this matter?

No other gods…

Isa 43:10, 11, 12, Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. 12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. KJV

No other savior besides God…

Hosea 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me. KJV

Mark 2:10 "But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"--He *said to the paralytic… KJV

No one else can share God’s glory…

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. KJV

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." KJV

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. KJV

Acts 10:42, 43 "And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." NKJV

John 3:15-21, 36

1stjohn0666, You appear not to know basic bibical Hebrew and nor how words work in the bible? Moses was no god, he could not save from sin. The term elohim written concerning humans - being gods means, such could judge and exercise authority as God representatives. ! These usages do not mean a person is a little god duplicateor or of the same class as God, but only as an ambassador representing God.

Next,

Listen who was speaking in the below quoted text?

Isa 44:6, 8 thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God… 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. KJV

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. KJV

Isa 48:11, 12 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. 12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. KJV

Rev 1:17, 18 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. KJV

Answer, who was speaking In the Isaiah text was the preincarnate Jesus…

Yaweh was speaking in 44:6

1stjohn0666 wrote:Yaweh was speaking in 44:6

Ancient Hebrews did not use vowels so YHWH is whom?
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The Father and God of Jesus

1stjohn0666 wrote:The Father and God of Jesus

So you are actually polytheistic rather than monotheistic? Hmmm not what you stated in another post…
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Are you referring to my stating that Moses is called Elohim so he must be God? Polytheist