Evidence for God from Science

1over137 wrote:So, I say it this way: God gave us free will and with that the possibility to oppose Him. Yet, when one does not accept Christ as his Saviour he is penalized forever.

Well, a person has free will to play with fire and if they do they get burned.
A person has free will to drive like a maniac, but when they crash they will get hurt, possibly killed.
A person has the choice between Christ that is Love, compassion, forgiveness, divine grace and what is the opposite of that.
What a person choose is THEIR responsibility, right?
Free will would ONLY be an "unfair thing" (whatever that may mean) is a person was UNAWARE of the consequences of their actions/choices available to them.
Adam and Eve were told the consequences of their actions BEFORE they did them.
We are told the consequences of our actions before we do them too and choosing Christ is no different.
The choice is given: Christ and eternal life in Love or NOT.

I find it clever what you said Paul. I have one question, though. Did Adam and Eve know what it means to die?

I'd like to ask you whether Satan was given the inclination to oppose Him.

I think it takes us back to my last post, there is indeed a certain free will, free enough to rebel. Was Lucifer given an inclination by God to rebel? No, I do not think so (as God does not tempt us with evil) but I think Lucifer himself took offence. His pride (an act of choice, choice presumes will) caused him to rebel and therefore was banished from heaven and his place and title.

1over137 wrote:I find it clever what you said Paul. I have one question, though. Did Adam and Eve know what it means to die?

Is there any reason to believe that God would have warned them about something they had no knowledge of?
Of course they didn't die when they had the fruit, not in the physical sense which came much later.

neo-x wrote:

I'd like to ask you whether Satan was given the inclination to oppose Him.

I think it takes us back to my last post, there is indeed a certain free will, free enough to rebel. Was Lucifer given an inclination by God to rebel? No, I do not think so (as God does not tempt us with evil) but I think Lucifer himself took offence. His pride (an act of choice, choice presumes will) caused him to rebel and therefore was banished from heaven and his place and title.

This answer is found in:

Eze 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.
Eze 28:14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. " NASB

Note verse 15 - Until unrighteousness was found in you...

It was found - not placed...
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B.W.: I need to resolve one thing: coexistence of the verses your provided above with the note (c) in John 17:12 at http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NASB where it says that Satan was "destined to perish."

Thank you for the help.

1over137 wrote:B.W.: I need to resolve one thing: coexistence of the verses your provided above with the note (c) in John 17:12 at http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NASB where it says that Satan was "destined to perish."

Thank you for the help.

John 6:70, 71 - John 13:18 answers who Jesus was speaking about. It was Judas. Note context of the prayer in John 17:6,9 leads to John 17:12 an identifies whom he spoke of: Judas.

John 17:14 continues speaking of the twelve and context sifts to those whom he will glorify thru the 11 who remain in John 17:20

John 17:12 does not refer to the devil himself but rather Judas...
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So, Judas was meant. But then the note (c) in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NASB means that Judas was "destined to perish". Right? Is he now in hell?

So, the unrighteousness was found in Satan. From where? Happened as possibility of events?

1over137 wrote:So, Judas was meant. But then the note (c) in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NASB means that Judas was "destined to perish". Right? Is he now in hell?

So, the unrighteousness was found in Satan. From where? Happened as possibility of events?

That is what the bible indicates about Judas - recall Judas was born but the devil was created as Ezekiel 28:12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19c mentions and was pointed out in earlier post.

Note also Isaiah 14:4-19 as well too.

Does this help you gain more insight and what you are looking for?
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B. W. wrote:

1over137 wrote:So, Judas was meant. But then the note (c) in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NASB means that Judas was "destined to perish". Right? Is he now in hell?

So, the unrighteousness was found in Satan. From where? Happened as possibility of events?

That is what the bible indicates about Judas - recall Judas was born but the devil was created as Ezekiel 28:12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19c mentions and was pointed out in earlier post.

Note also Isaiah 14:4-19 as well too.

Does this help you gain more insight and what you are looking for?

Concerning Satan, I have found what I am looking for - Eze 28:16, but it is very brief. "“By the abundance of your trade
you were internally filled with violence, and you sinned". What is this about?

Concerning Judas, what do you want to say by saying that he was born? Bible says, he was destined to perish. And if he ends up in hell, I find it not really fair.

Concerning Judas, what do you want to say by saying that he was born? Bible says, he was destined to perish. And if he ends up in hell, I find it not really fair.

Hana, did Judas choose to betray Jesus? Or, did God make Judas betray Jesus? God, being omnipotent, knew that Judas would choose to do what he did.

1over137 wrote:Concerning Satan, I have found what I am looking for - Eze 28:16, but it is very brief. "“By the abundance of your trade
you were internally filled with violence, and you sinned". What is this about?

Eze 28:1-19 is Satan's history and God's prophecy against him. It is also prophecy against the king of Tyre, who is a type of Satan. So, this is a multivalent prophecy: it says several things at once, to several individuals. Some of the prophecy is completed (Eze 28:6-10) for the king of Tyre. Eze 28:11-19 is more properly Satan's history and prophecied ending. Verse-by-verse, it looks like this:

Eze 28:11-12a, Ezekiel is filled with the Spirit and compelled to prophecy.
Eze 28:12b, God's description of Satan's qualities.
Eze 28:13, God's description of Satan's fabulous adornment, and confirms Satan's original place of residence described in Genesis.*
Eze 28:14a, God's confirms Satan's original job description. Eze 28:14b, God confirms that Satan had direct access to God (see Job 1:6, Lk 22:31).
Eze 28:15, God confirms Satan's original perfection and obedience until he went astray.
Eze 28:16a, In service to God (for Satan was an important angel, a messenger) Satan went astray. Eze 28:16b, God's reaction to Satan's betrayal.
Eze 28:17a, God's description of Satan's betrayal: pride, vanity, slyness. Eze 28:17b, God's confirmation that the earth is Satan's domain (Lk 10:18, Rev 2:13). I made a spectacle of you before kings refers to 1 Kings 18. Read the whole chapter to get the sense of it. Essentially, before the assembled kings, God consumed the priests of Baal. This is a picture of the coming judgement of all unbelievers.
Eze 28:18, another reference to the events of 1 Ki 18 and a yet-to-be fulfilled prophecy of Satan's end.
Eze 28:19, a yet-to-be fulfilled prophecy describing the astonishment of those who follow Satan upon seeing his downfall and destruction.

Jeremiah also describes the scene in Eze 28:19 but I can't remember where...

Anyway...I hope this helps you.

FL

*each jewel has significance but I won't get into that.

RickD wrote:

Concerning Judas, what do you want to say by saying that he was born? Bible says, he was destined to perish. And if he ends up in hell, I find it not really fair.

Hana, did Judas choose to betray Jesus? Or, did God make Judas betray Jesus? God, being omnipotent, knew that Judas would choose to do what he did.

So, Judas made himself "destined to perish". Sometimes, I have long cable (Slovak idiom).

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote: Anyway...I hope this helps you.

I appreciate it.

So, Satan was created with "the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty" and he SOMEHOW started to be pride and sly. You say, he went astray. Was the free will given to him labyrint for him? Was it wise of him to lose orientation?

1over137 wrote:So, Satan was created with "the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty" and he SOMEHOW started to be pride and sly.

''...and he SOMEHOW started to be pride[ful] and sly'' ...the somehow came about as a result of vanity: Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, Eze 28:17. If you look up the definition of vanity, you'll find that self-importance/self-admiration is an important component.

1over137 wrote:Was the free will given to him labyrint for him?

I'm not sure what you mean. You'll have to re-word your question.

1over137 wrote: Was it wise of him to lose orientation?

It is never wise to do something wrong.

FL