Evidence for God from Science

literal. what problems do you have with Job?

MAGSolo wrote: God didnt cause Job to suffer, he allowed him to suffer to prove a point to Satan. Thats not the same thing as causing him to suffer. The argument would be was it good and just by human standards for God to allow Job to suffer to prove a point to the devil. Who is Satan that God should be concerned with proving anything to him?

God didn't allow Job to suffer to prove ANYTHING to Satan.
Satan is OUR adversary and accuser, not God's.
The story is to prove something to US, the readers.
Now, what YOU get out of the story has A LOT to due with what you bring in.

And what do you base that opinion on? Lets look at the text:

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

So it seems that God told Satan to look at his servent Job, how he is blameless and upright, fears God and shuns evil. Satan says he is only that way because God has blessed him but were misfortune to befall him, he would curse the Lord. God says well go ahead, do what you please to him but dont harm him personally. Now where do you get the notion that this was not done to prove a point to Satan? Where in the bible is this indicated at all or is this merely your opinion?

I think if nothing else this settles the question of whether or not God allows suffering and evil . Not only does he allow it, but it seems he does so for very trivial reasons.

Read the WHOLE book.
Plus, if the lesson was for Satan, why write about it for Us?

Let's take a poll. How many here think....

A: Mag read the book of Job and came up with this objection on his own.
B: This thread was loaded from the beginning and Mags been marinating in atheist websites, looking for "objections," and rubbing his hands in anticipation of creating a "take the bait thread."

My vote is B.

This thread was a set up job from the onset. This isn't someone asking a sincere question seeking an honest answer. It was a loaded question. It seems the board is being bombarded with a fresh group of zealous atheist, ready to evangelize for their cause. We see that every so often.

B.

PaulSacramento wrote:Read the WHOLE book.
Plus, if the lesson was for Satan, why write about it for Us?

Are you saying that God wrote the book of Job? and I have read the entire book of Job. I wont claim to have read the entire bible but I have certainly read a great deal of it. Could you at least point me to a chapter that supports your assertion that God wasnt trying to prove a point to Satan?

jlay wrote:Let's take a poll. How many here think....

A: Mag read the book of Job and came up with this objection on his own.
B: This thread was loaded from the beginning and Mags been marinating in atheist websites, looking for "objections," and rubbing his hands in anticipation of creating a "take the bait thread."

My vote is B.

This thread was a set up job from the onset. This isn't someone asking a sincere question seeking an honest answer. It was a loaded question. It seems the board is being bombarded with a fresh group of zealous atheist, ready to evangelize for their cause. We see that every so often.

You dont really need to marinate in atheist websites to find job problematic. Any reasonable person should have questions concerning why God would allow satan to kill every member of Jobs family, take all of his possessions, and inflict him with terrible painful diseases to prove a point to anyone. Any reasonable logical person should be able to read that and have some concerns.

Now as far as this thread being loaded, I simply asked whether Job was literal or not so that people would not see the difficulties and then claim that the book was figurative and a parable and that it didnt actually happen. I just wanted to clear the air concerning what everyone felt concerning whether it was literal or not. But no I have not been marinating in atheist websites looking for objections, but even if I had, what difference would it make?

The key still here is that God permits evil to happen - but does not cause it. The blame lies with satan. And so what if God was proving a point to satan - he was just showing him how futile satans's plots and schemes are as he did to us by showing us how futile our schemes are without God almost every day.

God is the author of life - so he can certainly take it away. And besides Job's suffering pales into insignificance when set aside the reward that awaits him and all his family dead and alive in heaven. - A spec on a spec of suffering against an eternity of joy. Neither Job, satan or the reader knows the big picture - which is exactly what God said in the book. So unless you have extra special revelation that we do not know about - then I would rather trust that God had sufficient moral reasons for permitting the evil bestowed on Job.

Silvertusk.

Mag, just so we're all on the same page, could you please define evil?

PaulSacramento wrote:My point is that whether Job was a real person or not was irrelevant to why the writer of Job wrote the book.

If Job was not a real person, then Eze 14:14, 20. must be fake because God claims to be the speaker. If that part of Ezekiel is fake, the rest of it is in question. Ditto for the Book of James. If Ezekiel & James are questionable, what of the rest of the Bible?

PaulSacramento wrote:point is that whether Job was a real person or not was irrelevant to why the writer of Job wrote the book.
Jesus parable of Lazarus and the rich man was a parable too and he used names.

Lazarus and the rich man isn't a parable either but this isn't the place to show this.

Please stop dumbing the Bible down to make it more palatable to the lost.

FL

Byblos wrote:Mag, just so we're all on the same page, could you please define evil?

morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked

MAGSolo wrote:And what do you base that opinion on? Lets look at the text:

Let's look at the text indeed. Note G-d's direct introduction into the story and answer to everything that's been said starting in chapter 38 on to the end in chapter 42. Why does He address Job only? If this was all for the sake of proving something to Satan, why isn't he mentioned again or addressed? Certainly if G-d is the childish, capricious Person you seem to want to make Him out to be, why wouldn't He take the oppurtunity to gloat to Satan or at least acknowledge their bet.

So it seems that God told Satan to look at his servent Job, how he is blameless and upright, fears God and shuns evil. Satan says he is only that way because God has blessed him but were misfortune to befall him, he would curse the Lord. God says well go ahead, do what you please to him but dont harm him personally. Now where do you get the notion that this was not done to prove a point to Satan? Where in the bible is this indicated at all or is this merely your opinion?

I think if nothing else this settles the question of whether or not God allows suffering and evil . Not only does he allow it, but it seems he does so for very trivial reasons.

Look at Job 21:22.
"Can anyone teach G-d knowledge,
In that He judges those on high?"

The G-d of the Bible, the G-d of the book of Job, is all-knowing. Why would He need to prove a point to Satan when He already knows what will happen?

Job 40:2
"Will the faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
Let him who reproves G-d answer it."

MAGSolo wrote:...God didnt cause Job to suffer, he allowed him to suffer to prove a point to Satan. Thats not the same thing as causing him to suffer. The argument would be was it good and just by human standards for God to allow Job to suffer to prove a point to the devil. Who is Satan that God should be concerned with proving anything to him?

Job 2:3 The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."

Notice the word translated incited is from the Hebrew word sûṯ:

It is a …verb meaning to incite, to entice, to mislead. It has the sense of stirring up persons with the intention to get them to deviate, to act with destructive, harmful purposes or results in mind… to lead them astray (deviate)

From AMG Complete Word Study Dictionary

The adversary was doing what to whom? Why woud he try to cause God to deviate?
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MAGSolo wrote:

Byblos wrote:Mag, just so we're all on the same page, could you please define evil?

morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked

Ah so now we're getting somewhere. Please define what morality is (again so we can discuss the subject knowing we are both understanding the terms similarly).