Evidence for God from Science

Annihilationists apparently don't believe in God's JUSTICE. Does it make sense that a Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, tyrants that have murdered and brutalized millions over many years, that they receive no punishment to fit their crimes - that their crimes have cost them nothing beyond coming to an end to their existence? So unbeliever A is the classic, so-called "good man" - he's a good citizen, paid his taxes, gave to charity, didn't steal, etc - but, nonetheless, he died in his unbelief. But unbeliever B was a monster of mass genocide and extensive and horrific evil. And so, per Annihilationist beliefs, we're to believe the fates of both unbelievers A and B are precisely the same - as they both cease to exist, and as they both escape all forms of physical, psychological or spiritual punishment that they otherwise might experience, and as all of their cognitive functions simply evaporate into nothingness? The end result for Unbeliever A and Unbeliever B are precisely the same. Where is God's justice in that? Does that seem fair? Doesn't that make you just a little bit angry?

Philip, I think cheezerrox would say that all unbelievers will get different degrees of punishment before their annihilation. But, ultimately that makes no sense, if all are destroyed(annihilated). Because, like you said, all would get the same fate.
I don't know if I could make a biblical case though, for my belief that unbelievers receive differing levels of torment in hell. Each will reap according to what he has sown in this life. All unbelievers will be eternally separated from God, but will have differing degrees of torment, brought upon themselves, by themselves.
Philip, also keep in mind the belief that someone like hitler, could have come to a saving faith in Christ on his deathbed. That person would then have eternal life, and all the atrocities he committed would go unpunished. On the surface, where's the justice in that?
For example:

Annihilationists apparently don't believe in God's JUSTICE. Does it make sense that a Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, tyrants that have murdered and brutalized millions over many years, that they receive no punishment to fit their crimes -

What if hitler, Stalin, pol pot, et al, accepted Christ, and gained everlasting life, thereby having all their atrocities forgiven, and completely wiped out and forgotten by God. Would that make you angry? Or would you rejoice, that such horrible unworthy sinners sins could be completely erased and forgotten by God, as if they never happened? Those horrible murderers could receive the same everlasting life and love of God, that we simple, "not so bad" sinners receive. Where's the justice in that?

RickD wrote:Could you then tell me what Daniel 12:2 means, in light of annihilation?

Daniel 12:2

Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting [a]contempt.

I'm glad you brought it up, as it commonly is in discussions on this subject. Daniel 12:2 establishes the fact that there will be two resurrections, and that some will go on to everlasting life, while others will be awakened to dishonor and shame that continues forever. It's a very similar picture to Isaiah 66:24, so if you don't mind, I'll use that verse to help interpret this one. There it says that those who've transgressed against Hashem will be looked on by those who are resurrected to the life spoken of by Daniel, and that these transgressors will be corpses, who's fire will not be quenched, and who will be an abhorrence to all mankind. Again, this is reminiscient of many times in Revelation where certain people (the woman Babylon, those who accept the mark of the beast, et cetera), where it's said that the smoke of people's torment will rise forever and ever (which itself is a quote from Isaiah 34:10). All these verses seem to describe the same thing in different words. Disgrace, contempt, abhorrence, smoke of their torment; it all shows that the judgement and wrath that was presented against these men and women was of ETERNAL standing, and that the shame and abhorrence and magnitude of their punishment will be so powerful and fearful that it will be remembered and "looked upon" forever.

An analogy for the disgrace and contempt spoken of in that verse by Daniel, it's similar in a way to how we as people perceive Hitler. He's long dead and gone, and yet, we to this day (and presumably forevermore) will hold him in a place of everlasting disgrace and contempt, although he is not here to be alive and conscious as the object of those feelings.

Philip wrote:Annihilationists apparently don't believe in God's JUSTICE. Does it make sense that a Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, tyrants that have murdered and brutalized millions over many years, that they receive no punishment to fit their crimes - that their crimes have cost them nothing beyond coming to an end to their existence? So unbeliever A is the classic, so-called "good man" - he's a good citizen, paid his taxes, gave to charity, didn't steal, etc - but, nonetheless, he died in his unbelief. But unbeliever B was a monster of mass genocide and extensive and horrific evil. And so, per Annihilationist beliefs, we're to believe the fates of both unbelievers A and B are precisely the same - as they both cease to exist, and as they both escape all forms of physical, psychological or spiritual punishment that they otherwise might experience, and as all of their cognitive functions simply evaporate into nothingness? The end result for Unbeliever A and Unbeliever B are precisely the same. Where is God's justice in that? Does that seem fair? Doesn't that make you just a little bit angry?

Now, I don't believe this is very fair. For one, this is not an accurate representation of the doctrine of annihilationism. Annihilationists do believe in a punishment in the afterlife for those who haven't accepted the Good News, that involves conscious punishment and torment. We also believe in different degrees of punishment for different people, so there is a difference in the punishments of unbeliever A and unbeliever B. Also, to say that annihilationists don't believe in G-d's Justice is simply not the kind of way we should speak of fellow believers, especially when the reasons you give for saying so are not accurate. I'm not that knowledgable of the individual logical fallacies and their definitions, but I think I'd be right in saying this is pretty much a strawman by definition.

RickD wrote:Philip, I think cheezerrox would say that all unbelievers will get different degrees of punishment before their annihilation. But, ultimately that makes no sense, if all are destroyed(annihilated). Because, like you said, all would get the same fate.
I don't know if I could make a biblical case though, for my belief that unbelievers receive differing levels of torment in hell. Each will reap according to what he has sown in this life. All unbelievers will be eternally separated from God, but will have differing degrees of torment, brought upon themselves, by themselves.
Philip, also keep in mind the belief that someone like hitler, could have come to a saving faith in Christ on his deathbed. That person would then have eternal life, and all the atrocities he committed would go unpunished. On the surface, where's the justice in that?

I would disagree, that it makes no sense if all are destroyed. If one person receives a certain amount/intensity of punishment and torment before being consumed by the flames of Gey-Hinnom, while another person receives a different amount/intensity of punishment and torment before finally being consumed, then how is there not a difference? I always found the concept of differing amounts of punishment harder to make sense of in the everlasting torment framework, as the whole everlasting part of the torment makes just about anything unbelievably agonizing.
I do believe the idea that unbelievrs will receive different allotments of torment is found in Scripture. For example, Yeshua's words in Luke 12:47-48 give this feeling, as well as as you noted, the idea of people reaping what they sow. There are other places that I've used before to support this view, but, I cannot remember them specifically right now. The idea of a judgement (the Great White Throne Judgement, in particular) also implies differing degrees of punishment.
And I do believe you make a good point. It's a dangerous thing for us to judge G-d's Justice, as He certainly does not act or think in accordance with our actions or thoughts (Isaiah 55:8).

Now let's all be honest with each other and just try to see the truth as it is. I could very well be wrong, but, let's try to work this out together as brothers and not as simply adherents to different doctrines. Do you guys think I should make a separate thread for this debate, so we don't derail this thread too much anymore and so we can discuss this more fully and with other people?

Do you guys think I should make a separate thread for this debate, so we don't derail this thread too much anymore and so we can discuss this more fully and with other people?

Right now, I think we've stayed pretty much on topic, so we could continue here.

Cheezerrox, I added a little to my last post, while you were posting. Just wanted to bring that to your attention, because you quoted my last post.

I always found the concept of differing amounts of punishment harder to make sense of in the everlasting torment framework, as the whole everlasting part of the torment makes just about anything unbelievably agonizing.

Cheezerrox, this was addressed in B.W.'s book, in amazing clarity. You'll just have to read it, to see how he describes the differing punishments that each person brings upon himself.

Cheezerrox, this will give you a small example of what I was saying about the differing levels of torment, in B.W.'s book:http://www.bibleprobe.com/hells-dominion.htm

Each trapped soul reaped in full measure whatever they had sown during their lives. Many entered this pit and into the cubes by means of spinning vortexes. I also noticed another entrance. All those people trapped resided totally alone and were not aware of each other. The only thing each was aware of, were the creatures residing with them and the scenes enacted within their own personal square nightmarish abode.
 
I would say that each person trapped there felt a peculiar separation from God in the form of feeling banished forever from the loving nature of God and true life. Each knew fully that they deserved his or her fate because each chose to walk away from God and now resided in place without God as they desired during his or hers life lived on earth. God, in his great justice, fairness, and unfathomable love gave them what they desired: a place without God and where each was receiving the fruits of his or her own doings.
 

RickD wrote:Right now, I think we've stayed pretty much on topic, so we could continue here.

Okay.

Cheezerrox, I added a little to my last post, while you were posting. Just wanted to bring that to your attention, because you quoted my last post.

Thank you for saying so, as I probably wouldn't have noticed. I believe you make a beautiful point that really shows that with G-d, we have to rethink what we think of as "justice" and other concepts.

Cheezerrox, this was addressed in B.W.'s book, in amazing clarity. You'll just have to read it, to see how he describes the differing punishments that each person brings upon himself.

RickD wrote:Cheezerrox, this will give you a small example of what I was saying about the differing levels of torment, in B.W.'s book:http://www.bibleprobe.com/hells-dominion.htm

Each trapped soul reaped in full measure whatever they had sown during their lives. Many entered this pit and into the cubes by means of spinning vortexes. I also noticed another entrance. All those people trapped resided totally alone and were not aware of each other. The only thing each was aware of, were the creatures residing with them and the scenes enacted within their own personal square nightmarish abode.
 
I would say that each person trapped there felt a peculiar separation from God in the form of feeling banished forever from the loving nature of God and true life. Each knew fully that they deserved his or her fate because each chose to walk away from God and now resided in place without God as they desired during his or hers life lived on earth. God, in his great justice, fairness, and unfathomable love gave them what they desired: a place without God and where each was receiving the fruits of his or her own doings.
 

I really will just have to get the book at some point, I suppose, lol. That's certainly a terrifying picture. No matter what, I know for a fact that G-d's Love and Righteousness will be displayed perfectly.

Thank you for saying so, as I probably wouldn't have noticed. I believe you make a beautiful point that really shows that with G-d, we have to rethink what we think of as "justice" and other concepts.

I know at least with myself, there have been times, that I'm ashamed to admit, that I've looked at other people, and said to myself, "at least I'm not as bad as he is". When in reality, without God's grace, who knows where I'd be.

No matter what, I know for a fact that G-d's Love and Righteousness will be displayed perfectly.

Amen

RickD wrote:I know at least with myself, there have been times, that I'm ashamed to admit, that I've looked at other people, and said to myself, "at least I'm not as bad as he is". When in reality, without God's grace, who knows where I'd be.

Oh my, just thinking of that is almost scary knowing that I'll stand before G-d one day with Him knowing my whole heart and my every thought and word. I've done exactly the same, my friend, and it's so contrary to the Gospel that I simply thank the Messiah for still dying for me knowing that, being a sinful human, even after I accepted His Gift I'd still do, think, and say things that're against Who He is and what He came to do. Humility is something that needs to be actively maintained.

Amen

So, what did you think of my post that included my interpretation of the Daniel verse? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

So, what did you think of my post that included my interpretation of the Daniel verse? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I'm gonna have to look into it a little more, before I can let you know what I think.

In the meantime, I'd like to know if you also believe in the ultimate annihilation of Satan and his angels, too. Or, is annihilation just the ultimate fate of unsaved humanity, in your opinion?

One thing that I keep coming back to with annihilation, is that the unsaved would die, and go to hell to be tormented. Then they would face judgment, and actually get a reprieve from their torment, by being annihilated. That just doesn't make sense to me.

cheezerrox wrote:…But, please tell me that you know that I, as well as many Annihilationists, don't adopt this position out of some kind of desperate attempt to believe what we want. I have no problem with you disagreeing, and I hope to learn things and be open to you and others who disagree with me, but you seem to think that the only reason I and others have this belief is because we're being dishonest, and in the above quote, if I'm not misunderstanding you, it seems as if you're calling our disagreement rebellion, and sin. Have I misunderstood you?

First let me clarify, Christian Annihilationist are saved and Heaven bound. I am not saying they are not. Secondly, it is a question of sin – the depths of sin. This something most people do not ponder. Sin is defined only as temporal acts. Such a view tries to say, these temporal acts do not fit the criteria of eternal recompense. Likewise, if sin is only temporal acts, then annihilation does not fit the criteria for non-being for finite (temporal) sins either.

Sin is not defined only as temporal acts, such as stealing, lying, etc & etc, theses are the fruits of sin. Real sin is missing the mark, twisting and warping truth so as to justify one's fruits, sin involves knowingly or unknowingly manipulating God’s goodness, his attributes, in order to avoid consequences, etc, Sin is within the heart. It is an inner attitude that actually twists, manipulates, and games the system (God’s system) for a lack of better terminology.

This attitude is clever and always seeks to circumvent consequences. John wrote for the Believers in 1 John 1:8, 9c that there is still within us that need to be dealt with and cleansed from. This warping nature that seeks to pit God’s standards of character against them themselves is something we need to recognize as well. Christian do – do this in theology studies. All I am saying, is simply too ponder the depths of sin: how it twist and warps and games the system to get out of a jam. This sin is not temporal at all. How do people seek to justify sin and how do they try to avoid its eternal consequences thru appeals to human sympathy? What do you call this and evidence of?

And cheezerrox, please don't take me wrong. I am not against you. You are a brother in Christ. Often you write on these forums things that have helped me All I can do is ask of people to reconsider what sin really is and does. That is my point for all forms of Christian Annihilationism - consider the depths of sin. All I can ask...
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cheezerrox wrote:...I'm glad you brought it up, as it commonly is in discussions on this subject. Daniel 12:2 establishes the fact that there will be two resurrections, and that some will go on to everlasting life, while others will be awakened to dishonor and shame that continues forever.

It's a very similar picture to Isaiah 66:24, so if you don't mind, I'll use that verse to help interpret this one. There it says that those who've transgressed against Hashem will be looked on by those who are resurrected to the life spoken of by Daniel, and that these transgressors will be corpses, who's fire will not be quenched, and who will be an abhorrence to all mankind.

Again, this is reminiscent of many times in Revelation where certain people (the woman Babylon, those who accept the mark of the beast, et cetera), where it's said that the smoke of people's torment will rise forever and ever (which itself is a quote from Isaiah 34:10).

All these verses seem to describe the same thing in different words. Disgrace, contempt, abhorrence, smoke of their torment; it all shows that the judgment and wrath that was presented against these men and women was of ETERNAL standing, and that the shame and abhorrence and magnitude of their punishment will be so powerful and fearful that it will be remembered and "looked upon" forever.

An analogy for the disgrace and contempt spoken of in that verse by Daniel, it's similar in a way to how we as people perceive Hitler. He's long dead and gone, and yet, we to this day (and presumably forevermore) will hold him in a place of everlasting disgrace and contempt, although he is not here to be alive and conscious as the object of those feelings.

Recall I said;

There is a misconception which comes from our English word definitions translated as hell and the euphemism used to describe hell.

1-There is a Hell called the Lake of Fire which is future

2- There is a hell called Hades, Sheol, the pit, the grave… which is current

We label all these the same - Hell.

Daniel 12:2, deals with the Lake of Fire when the human spirit, is rejoined to a body. This is the last step. It is the final commuting of a prior sentence. The current Hell is like a holding center (Isaiah 24:22 NKJV). The Future Lake of Fire involves eternity in a real place with real eternal everlasting recompense involved. Revelation 20:10, 14, 15 mentions the nature of the torment in this Lake is forever and ever – not temporary.

There is nothing in the analogy for simple disgrace and contempt you used about Hitler to prove the points of annihilationism. Today, many people don’t even know who Hitler is and was, or even care. Do you hold with the same contempt and disgrace for Pharaoh as Hitler? Note that Rev 21:4 dismisses the notion that people in heaven will hold those within the Lake in everlasting memory of everlasting disgrace and contempt. How could they and retain no more ill feelings of pain over former things passed away?

How can you punish only a memory forever and ever? You cannot punish nothing forever. The bible does not speak of those in memoriam being held in everlasting mental memory of contempt. As for those that shine in everlasting life with God, then, those in eternal shame / abhorrence are likewise in these states as long as those who have everlasting life with God. That is far more frightening , and far more compelling to avoid at all cost than selling the idea that the wicked find peace through annihilationism so that a memoriam is what is punished (Matthew 25:46c).
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A question to, and a response from William Lane Craig, that I think is relevant to this discussion:
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/do-the-d ... punishment

First let me clarify, Christian Annihilationists are saved and Heaven bound. I am not saying they are not.

I absolutely agree! They just have a different take upon the eternal fate of unbelievers.

And I do find the idea that those dying unrepentant are first punished ACCORDINGLY and then subsequently annihilated, at least interesting. But I don't believe that it is Scriptural. Also, absolutely, any tyrant who finally repents before death can definitely be saved and will be with the Lord and in joy forever. Is that fair? Well, it wouldn't be IF anyone was getting to heaven based upon their works - whether from prior to their salvation or afterward. But if we were discerning fair from a mere human point of view, now it wouldn't seem so. But the truth is, in God's eyes, positionally /eternally, just ONE unrepentant sin (no matter how innocuous it may seem) is the equivalent of a million horrific, unrepentant sins. It's the uncovered/unforgiven's sins of unrepentance vs. the applied Blood of the Lamb upon the repentant's sins that make the difference.

In Revelation 14, we read: "9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”" This shows that such worshipers of the beast will endure torment that goes on "forever and ever."

So God, who created an order of beings (angels) that Scripture tells us are of a higher order than man, and yet God will nonetheless punish them FOREVER. Note that the "smoke" goes up "forever and ever" - smoke is a result of something being consumed by fire. If they simply ceased to exist, why would the smoke continue? And if God would punish ANY being FOREVER, doesn't that suggest that He well "might" do the very same for men who die in their sins?

Matthew 25:46: "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Note that the punishment is ETERNAL, and that it is contrasted and compared with the eternal life of the righteous.

And, very key, is although their sins are finite, their unrepentance is forever - and thus their punishment continues accordingly. Note that the parable of the rich man shows him not to show any hint of wanting to repent, or of being sorry for his sins, or of declaring any hint of him wanting a second chance to embrace or love God. He may not like where he is, but he still shows no desire to reach out to the Lord either.

Philip wrote:

Matthew 25:46: "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Note that the punishment is ETERNAL, and that it is contrasted and compared with the eternal life of the righteous.

What I think is important to understand with this verse, is that the word translated as "eternal", in eternal punishment, and eternal life, is the same word. It's the Greek word, Aionios. If eternal life is never ending, then eternal punishment, would seem to mean never ending, as well. Annihilation certainly isn't eternal punishment. I think the only thing up for debate with this verse, would be the idea that it is God doing the punishing, as opposed to the unbeliever being punished by his own choice to deny Jesus Christ.

And, very key, is although their sins are finite, their unrepentance is forever - and thus their punishment continues accordingly. Note that the parable of the rich man shows him not to show any hint of wanting to repent, or of being sorry for his sins, or of declaring any hint of him wanting a second chance to embrace or love God. He may not like where he is, but he still shows no desire to reach out to the Lord either.

If I'm reading you right here Philip, I tend to agree. Unbelievers aren't being eternally punished in hell because they are murderers, or adulterers, etc. Those sins Christ has died for. The sin of denying Christ, and therefore unbelief, is apparently a different kind of sin.

+++++

RickD wrote:A question to, and a response from William Lane Craig, that I think is relevant to this discussion:
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/do-the-d ... punishment

I think Craig hits all the main points very well in his response; however, I do not agree with his opinion on Luke 16:19-31. There are several things missed about this account of the Rich man and Lazarus.

The Rich man never asked to be freed from his domain in Hades. His thought was for only on himself, Luke 16:24. He was not in a repentant frame of mind. He did not ask to be released from Hades either but instead requested Lazarus to be sent back to warn his five brothers. What of other people beside them – where was his concern?

The rich man focus was only upon making himself look good so as too game mercy for his own personal use and ends. If you look closely, you can see how he was trying to game mercy and noble motives for his own ends, in Hades before the cross.

There is a lot Craig could have gone into regarding Luke 16:19-31 but he chose not to. Overall Craig’s’ article was very good. I would only add to his comments this: Annihilationism is also a very steep cost for finite sins. Annihilationism does not fit the crime either.

Note a question: Jesus did raise a Lazarus from the dead in John 11:14, 39, 43c and John 12:10 is it possible that that Luke 16 speaks of the same person? I do not know…
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