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Re: Is the Christian God the same as the Islamic god?

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:30 am
by jlay
I disagree. If you could actually find someone who admits that faith plus works saves, that person would believe in a different Christ, than those who believe that belief apart from works saves. The Christ whose work is enough to save, is a different Christ from the Christ whose work isn't enough to save apart from human works. Only Christ who is actually God, has the power in Himself to effect salvation. A Christ who needs an addition of human works to effect salvation, isn't God, and therefore, is a different Christ.
Rick,
As far as the historical information, those people are relying on the same revelation. The Jesus as recorded in the four Gospels. the one born of a virgin, who was raised in Nazareth in the early 1st century, who performed miracles, was crucified, buried and raised from the dead. The exact issue Jac covered still applies. The sotierological question isn't the issue. Same historical Jesus. Different interpretation of His message.
Did Judas believe in a different Jesus?
We could even have a discussion (excluding works) from the free grace perspective regarding what exactly one must believe about Christ to be saved. In fact these discussions have been happening for a while and have caused a lot of division in the free grace movement.

Re: Is the Christian God the same as the Islamic god?

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:42 am
by narnia4
Let me try an analogy, not sure how helpful it is but I'll try it anyway.

Let's say you're walking down the street and bump into a man. You glance at the man and think "Wow, that's George Bush!" You chase the man down in the hopes of getting an autograph, only to learn that he only looked like George Bush and was in fact a plumber. Were you thinking about the same man as the man's wife would?

I would say yes, your thoughts were directed at the same being. The problem is that you misinterpreted his characteristics, gave him the wrong name, etc. etc.

Re: Is the Christian God the same as the Islamic god?

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:47 am
by RickD
Jlay, Mormonism claims to believe in the same Jesus of Nazareth, that the bible speaks of too. But, then they add their revelation to Joseph Smith, and that's their Jesus. Same Jesus? Where do you draw the line?
Did Judas believe in a different Jesus?
Did Judas believe the Jesus he walked with, and ate with, was God incarnate? It's hard for me to say. If someone was as close to Jesus as Judas was, how could he not know who Jesus was? On the other hand, judas betraying Jesus, leads me to think that maybe judas didn't think he was in the presence of God.

What about people who have lived thinking that their works are needed for salvation, then realize that Jesus' finished work is all that is needed. Did they believe in a different Jesus, or did they just not understand the real Jesus? I guess I could see it as either. I don't see a difference.

Re: Is the Christian God the same as the Islamic god?

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:51 am
by RickD
narnia4 wrote:Let me try an analogy, not sure how helpful it is but I'll try it anyway.

Let's say you're walking down the street and bump into a man. You glance at the man and think "Wow, that's George Bush!" You chase the man down in the hopes of getting an autograph, only to learn that he only looked like George Bush and was in fact a plumber. Were you thinking about the same man as the man's wife would?

I would say yes, your thoughts were directed at the same being. The problem is that you misinterpreted his characteristics, gave him the wrong name, etc. etc.
Ok, I see what you're getting at. But, I guess like I said in the post to jlay, if I completely misrepresent characteristics of someone, then I am no longer seeing that person as he really is. I'm seeing a different person. Maybe we're saying almost the same thing, in a different way?

Re: Is the Christian God the same as the Islamic god?

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:23 am
by RickD
2 Corinthians 11:4 4 For if [a]one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

Is this a warning against another Jesus, or the same Jesus that was preached to them before, but just misrepresented?

Re: Is the Christian God the same as the Islamic god?

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:42 am
by RickD
Here's a great article for those interested:IS ALLAH THE GOD OF THE BIBLE?

Re: Is the Christian God the same as the Islamic god?

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:12 am
by B. W.
RickD wrote:Here's a great article for those interested:IS ALLAH THE GOD OF THE BIBLE?
That link says it best of all - the answer is NO - they are not the same...
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Re: Is the Christian God the same as the Islamic god?

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:32 am
by Philip
Could some possibly have faith AND yet also believe that works are necessary for salvation. Maybe. But the key to heaven, first and foremost is FAITH. But it can't just merely be BELIEF - an intellectual, not-committing/unrepentant faith - which is a type of belief, but yet is not a Scriptural, saving faith. So some might truly have repentant faith in Jesus but yet also harbor a wrongful understanding that their salvation rests on nothing else - as works have NO role in faith - although the nature of them are SIGNS of faith. Point is, the Apostles spent much time enlightening already saved believers of their false theological beliefs - the "Jesus ANDs." So it is possible to be saved and yet have some wrongful understanding of that process.

Whatever the cults believe, they all share a rejection that Jesus is Resurrected God and that repentant faith in him is the ONLY key to heaven. Most false beliefs and theologies start with some elements of the truth. Satan rarely deceives by BEGINNING with a TOTAL lie. No, he begins with some element of truth so as to give the subsequent lie he will connect that initial, partial truth to some credibility. Note that Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and Muslims all have core doctrines that stole from God's word - as they copied convenient elements of it, but added to it with distortions, perversions and outright lies. They started with a theology that had wide-spread credibility and acceptance, but then used parts of it give their own evil doctrines credibility and acceptance.

So as to whether non-Christian religions are talking about the same God - let's just say that they certainly are not saying THE SAME key/salvation absolutes about Him, as given by HIM. And as Jesus clearly said: "Who do YOU say I am?" Genesis records: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him." And yet the cults ALL create God in MAN'S image - as how they want him to be, convenient to their own narcissistic, evil desires. And so discussions over what kernels of God's truth that they began with, to create their own stated paths to salvation, are nothing more than a rather pointless academic debate. The end result of the debate: No SAVING, repentant faith in Jesus, then NO salvation! Whatever ELSE is believed is truly irrelevant to that. Class dismissed!

Re: Is the Christian God the same as the Islamic god?

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:21 am
by PaulSacramento
Ivellious wrote:But Rick, both your description and Protestant's both mean that Christians and Jews don't worship the same God. The Jewish God is Unitarian and has no son either. Yet, most Christians won't hesitate to tell you that they worship the same God as the Jews.

Personally I'd say that Paul is closest to my belief; that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God, albeit in greatly differing ways and with different understandings.
Well, worship the same God is a bit of a stretch...that their religions have, as their Deity, the original God of Abraham, yes of course.
But that is where it ends because HOW the worship and WHAT they worship is not the same.
Trinity thing aside, the Hebrew God and Islamic God is far more "the same" than the Christian God because of what he demands and gives Us.
Allah and Yahweh are more "works oriented" while the Christian God revealed in Christ is a giver of grace, of forgiveness and salvation.
Allah and Yahweh are "unattainable" to their worshipers, The God of Christians become MAN so that we could attain Him.
IMO, Yahweh became Our Father via Christs complete and correct revelation of Him and only be being a christian cna we understand Yahweh as Christ has revealed Him but to do that we must accept Christ, those that don't accept Christ "get" the OT Yahweh/ Allah.

Re: Is the Christian God the same as the Islamic god?

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:35 pm
by KBCid
Allah is intended to be the same entity that jews and christians worship. The problem as always arises in whether you obey what he has directed you to do.

Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Act 3:20-23 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Muslims aren't lying when they say Christ was a prophet... check out the references;
Mat 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Joh 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
The prophet like Moses http://www.jewishroots.net/library/mess ... -moses.htm

The problem in this case is that they are not obeying God's instructions. There are many many more who do believe in Christ and yet still fail to obey God's commands. Catholocism has appointed a pope to speak with the authority of Christ. They have by law caused the sabbath day to become sunday and they have made it ok for people to worship Mary. No where in the bible have I ever read that God says its ok to do what you think is right as long as you believe in his Son. Christ did only that which his father commanded, we are expected be like Christ...

Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

So even though the deity in this case is the same for many religions, the way you honor that deity counts. When one considers that belief is the only concern then obeying becomes a secondary thing with little power of effect. My mom spoke in the past about this very point when she said "The catholics raise hell all week, every week and then get forgiven on every sunday. I don't think this is right"
Well mom I have studied Gods word and I agree with you on this point. How you exist matters regardless of your beliefs.

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

If I believe in Christ and I am not a Jew is it ok to break Gods laws or disobey his commands? We cannot be saved by obeying the law as this is our duty to reflect the same "righteousness of the law" that Christ did. Christ made it clear that there is a spirit of the law when he was confronted about his disciples eating on the sabbath. Christ also made it clear that that the leaders had made the law a burden by not observing it in the spirit it was intended. At no time did he ever infer that Gods commands should not be obeyed.
He was always expanding the true understanding of the laws and commands to give us understanding of the nature of our heavenly Father.

Re: Is the Christian God the same as the Islamic god?

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:01 am
by B. W.
You might want to search the Forum for past topic on this subject too see link below:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=37290
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Re: Is the Christian God the same as the Islamic god?

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:45 pm
by Zionist
PaulSacramento wrote:
Ivellious wrote:But Rick, both your description and Protestant's both mean that Christians and Jews don't worship the same God. The Jewish God is Unitarian and has no son either. Yet, most Christians won't hesitate to tell you that they worship the same God as the Jews.

Personally I'd say that Paul is closest to my belief; that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God, albeit in greatly differing ways and with different understandings.
Well, worship the same God is a bit of a stretch...that their religions have, as their Deity, the original God of Abraham, yes of course.
But that is where it ends because HOW the worship and WHAT they worship is not the same.
Trinity thing aside, the Hebrew God and Islamic God is far more "the same" than the Christian God because of what he demands and gives Us.
Allah and Yahweh are more "works oriented" while the Christian God revealed in Christ is a giver of grace, of forgiveness and salvation.
Allah and Yahweh are "unattainable" to their worshipers, The God of Christians become MAN so that we could attain Him.
IMO, Yahweh became Our Father via Christs complete and correct revelation of Him and only be being a christian cna we understand Yahweh as Christ has revealed Him but to do that we must accept Christ, those that don't accept Christ "get" the OT Yahweh/ Allah.
i have to say that i don't agree with you on this paul. you seem to be separating chrsitans and hebrews when we are all grafted together and worship the same God the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You seem to paint God as works oriented in the OT when he was always the God of forgiveness, salvation and grace. The hebrew people are our brothers and sisters and although as a collective they may not believe Yeshua as messiah they do believe in the messiah which as we speak more and more hebrews are starting see Him as that. I just hate seeing people separate christians and hebrews as if they have been replaced by us when in fact we are all brothers and sisters. it does sadden me to read stuff like this from fellow brothers. Allah is not the same as the God of the hebrews (which is our God too) he just isn't and i can't believe you actually said that.

Re: Is the Christian God the same as the Islamic god?

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:14 am
by Ivellious
But if a Hebrew/Jew suddenly decides that they believe in Jesus as the Messiah, they aren't a practicing Jew any more. Also, saying The Jewish God and the Christian God are the same while Allah "just isn't" is a pretty lame excuse for an argument. It just sounds like you want it to be that way out of nothing more than spite or bias.

Re: Is the Christian God the same as the Islamic god?

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:30 am
by Zionist
how can you even say that when you have not even picked up the bible and allowed God to move in your life? how am i biased when Christ himself acknowledged the OT writings and himself fulfilled scripture being a Hebrew himself? How am i biased when Paul himself said Israel is not cast away? How is allah the same God when scripture specifically warn against another gospel being preached from an angel when mohammed got his visions from an angel preaching another gospel? if they are the same God why do muslims constantly want to kill Israelites and drive them into the sea? you answer me these questions since you know so much about God?

Re: Is the Christian God the same as the Islamic god?

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:42 am
by Gman
Ivellious wrote:But if a Hebrew/Jew suddenly decides that they believe in Jesus as the Messiah, they aren't a practicing Jew any more. Also, saying The Jewish God and the Christian God are the same while Allah "just isn't" is a pretty lame excuse for an argument. It just sounds like you want it to be that way out of nothing more than spite or bias.
Jews can still remain Jews even after they accept the Christian faith. There are many Jews that can attest to that via messianic Judaism which is completely Torah based. Christianity and Judaism IS actually the same although their views on Messiah and salvation are different. The Koran is completely another book altogether. It would do you well to read up on it a bit more.