Evidence for God from Science

MAGSolo wrote:....That is not what I am saying at all. This is what I am saying: Suppose I see you somewhere with your wife or girlfriend out having a good time when a group of guys decides to start making trouble with you.

There are a good number of them and they are simply up to no good and you try your best to defend your wife/gf but are soon overpowered at which point some of the guys start mercilessly beating you to a pulp while the rest begin to ruthlessly beat and rape your wife/gf. Clearly these guys are responsible for their actions.

Now the thing is I am watching these events unfold from the beginning. Not only am I witnessing them but I have several items at my disposal that I could use to help. I have a gun and I could either shoot a few shots in the air to get the attackers to stop and flee or I could actually shoot at them to really drive my point home. I also have a cell phone so if nothing else I could at least call the police.

But I dont take my gun out, I dont dial 911, I dont yell at the attackers to stop, I dont yell or look for help, I just watch while you are beaten to a pulp and your wife/gf is beaten and repeatedly raped. I dont refuse to intervene because I am afraid, I simply dont think its my responsibility to prevent this from happening even though I could very likely stop it from happening.

Am I completely blameless in this series of events? Suppose someone where to ask me why I didnt do anything at all even though I had the ability to aid in some way, and I responded that its not my job to babysit people hold their hand so they dont do bad things. What would you think of me? Im not saying the perpetrators are not responsible, but I am asking do I not bear some responsibility for my inaction or is my inaction completely blameless and faultless?

Paul’s’ answer below is sufficient:

PaulSacramento wrote: Where in the bible does it say that God is the "police officer" of Earth?

I recall it saying that HUMANS are the stewards of creation and that means protectors of all of creation ( which includes themselves of course).

Seems to me that people DO want God to fix our mistakes and I am not sure why.

Yes, there is a promise of a future time when God will do just that, BUT what is also made clear is that even after that is done, some will still rebel.

Seems like people want an omnipotent dictator that forces people to behave, which is odd because when God does do that in the OT, He gets criticized for that.

Let be honest here, we ALL want God to fix things because we believe that with a "snap" of His divine fingers, all will be well.
And by that WE mean ALL that WE want we will have, ALL that WE THINK is right, will be right, ALL that WE THINK is suppose to be will be.
But guess what, the Bible doesn't say that.
It says that things will be as they are in Heaven, the kingdom of God will be Here with US and we will be with God.
And that is great and we all pray "Come Lord, COME !!" but we also h ave to be conscious of what that means - Judgment for All.
Maybe it's me, maybe I see things as not being ready for God yet, maybe I see that there are too many that have NOT come to God yet and I don't want them to parish, maybe I see that there is still too much for US to do and that when we give account to God ( and make no mistake we WILL give account to God and NOT the other way around) we will NOT be on the right side of the balance sheet.
God gave us this world and what have WE made of it? and how will we justify it to God?

PaulSacramento wrote:

There is a police officer tasked with guarding the lives of citizens who is on duty. In front of him is a person. A murderer comes up to that person and says to the officer, "I am going to kill this person." and waits 5 minutes. The officer does nothing but watch as this person kills them while being fully able to have prevented it. Why? To stop him would be a violation of that person's free will and rights under the law. The murderer is still guilty, but God was fully able to have saved this person's life - the murderer is only punished after the fact. This is more analogous to the situation he described.

Where in the bible does it say that God is the "police officer" of Earth?
I recall it saying that HUMANS are the stewards of creation and that means protectors of all of creation ( which includes themselves of course).
Seems to me that people DO want God to fix our mistakes and I am not sure why.
Yes, there is a promise of a future time when God will do just that, BUT what is also made clear is that even after that is done, some will still rebel.

Seems like people want an omnipotent dictator that forces people to behave, which is odd because when God does do that in the OT, He gets criticized for that.

Its not about God being a police officer. Its about having the ability to stop bad things from happening and not acting on that ability and what that says about your nature. God cannot rightfully be called good when he has the power to stop evil and doesnt. You cannot be good, have the power to prevent evil and still allow it to occur. This means the biblical God either can stop evil and doesnt which means he is not good or he cannot prevent evil which means he isnt omnipotent as described in the bible. Those are the only options.

MAGSolo wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

There is a police officer tasked with guarding the lives of citizens who is on duty. In front of him is a person. A murderer comes up to that person and says to the officer, "I am going to kill this person." and waits 5 minutes. The officer does nothing but watch as this person kills them while being fully able to have prevented it. Why? To stop him would be a violation of that person's free will and rights under the law. The murderer is still guilty, but God was fully able to have saved this person's life - the murderer is only punished after the fact. This is more analogous to the situation he described.

Where in the bible does it say that God is the "police officer" of Earth?
I recall it saying that HUMANS are the stewards of creation and that means protectors of all of creation ( which includes themselves of course).
Seems to me that people DO want God to fix our mistakes and I am not sure why.
Yes, there is a promise of a future time when God will do just that, BUT what is also made clear is that even after that is done, some will still rebel.

Seems like people want an omnipotent dictator that forces people to behave, which is odd because when God does do that in the OT, He gets criticized for that.

Its not about God being a police officer. Its about having the ability to stop bad things from happening and not acting on that ability and what that says about your nature. God cannot rightfully be called good when he has the power to stop evil and doesnt. You cannot be good, have the power to prevent evil and still allow it to occur. This means the biblical God either can stop evil and doesnt which means he is not good or he cannot prevent evil which means he isnt omnipotent as described in the bible. Those are the only options.

Those are the only two options based on what? Your view of things?
You think God is not good based on what? Your view of what is good and what is evil? base don what barometer of good and evil? and who's view of what is evil?

PaulSacramento wrote:Any specific situation in mind or just something in general?
First off, the person/people committing the great evil are the ones responsible for that great evil.
The guy that drives drunk and kills someone is the person responsible for that killing, not the car, not the guy that made the booze, not the friend that "let" him drive drunk.
We should NEVER shift responsibility of an act FROM the person/people DOING that act.

What you are basically asking is, since GOD can (supposedly) stop any act from happening and we know that he DOESN'T, isn't God just as guilty as the evil doers, right?
Well first of all, like I said above, only the person/people that commit and act of evil are responsible for that act of evil.
What you are really asking is, shouldn't God be responsible / liable for stopping acts of evil since God CAN do it?
Personally I think that God is NOT responsible, WE ARE.
Personally I think that it is not "God's Job" to "babysit" us and keep us from doing harm since WE don't want him to interfere anyways.
Lets be honest here, people do NOT want God to step into their lives and stop/prevent them from doing anything that want that, according to God, would result in "evil".
Ir's not God's job to hold our hand and fix our messes since we KNOW better, we KNOW what is evil and not.
God has done "His job", He has shown us right and wrong, good and evil AND given us the tool to do one or the other.
The rest is up to us.
So, in reality, according to your question, it isn't God that is on trial, it is US because WE know how to stop ANY "great evil" and we CAN do it, but we don't.

IMO you are at best about half right. Have you ever heard of the legal term accessories? And I think if God is not on trial its because He cannot be made to submit to a trial. Google mock trials and moot courts if you don't know what they are. I would love to see a mock trial of God.

ultimate777 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Any specific situation in mind or just something in general?
First off, the person/people committing the great evil are the ones responsible for that great evil.
The guy that drives drunk and kills someone is the person responsible for that killing, not the car, not the guy that made the booze, not the friend that "let" him drive drunk.
We should NEVER shift responsibility of an act FROM the person/people DOING that act.

What you are basically asking is, since GOD can (supposedly) stop any act from happening and we know that he DOESN'T, isn't God just as guilty as the evil doers, right?
Well first of all, like I said above, only the person/people that commit and act of evil are responsible for that act of evil.
What you are really asking is, shouldn't God be responsible / liable for stopping acts of evil since God CAN do it?
Personally I think that God is NOT responsible, WE ARE.
Personally I think that it is not "God's Job" to "babysit" us and keep us from doing harm since WE don't want him to interfere anyways.
Lets be honest here, people do NOT want God to step into their lives and stop/prevent them from doing anything that want that, according to God, would result in "evil".
Ir's not God's job to hold our hand and fix our messes since we KNOW better, we KNOW what is evil and not.
God has done "His job", He has shown us right and wrong, good and evil AND given us the tool to do one or the other.
The rest is up to us.
So, in reality, according to your question, it isn't God that is on trial, it is US because WE know how to stop ANY "great evil" and we CAN do it, but we don't.

IMO you are at best about half right. Have you ever heard of the legal term accessories? And I think if God is not on trial its because He cannot be made to submit to a trial. Google mock trials and moot courts if you don't know what they are. I would love to see a mock trial of God.

How can we judge God when we don't have all the evidence, we only see a small fraction of the big picture and God see's it all.

It's like holding a murder trial with no motive, no weapon and no witnesses.

Dan

This is so clichéd now that I even do not wanna post but seeing that this is hanging on more than it deserves, I am going to say this once. God stops evil, God prevents a lot of things from happening as well. Someone has to die, it is their time, everyone has to die, their is a time fixed for everything. If God steps in and prevents any death from ever happening, you'd have a full blown earth with humans falling from the sides (no im not a flat earther). The truth is, that God never fully interferes in our realm, we are accountable for what we do. He only interferes directly where it is part of the bigger picture. God will not melt a gun in someones hand or stop your heart becuase you were about to steal or lie. This is not the God of the Bible and this is where you are wrong because you are trying to form a god according to your own version of Good and evil.

Let me ask you, have you never done something wrong? if you have then by God's standards you will die, plain and simple. Because all sin in punishable by death. Lie, rape, steal, every act that is outside of God's favor is a sin and therefore would be punished - in a free will universe. It is only Christ who saves us. I do not really care what standard you have, in theism God is the standard and only that counts.

Think about it, this is such a stupid question that I am baffled why you are so hung on it.

Should God stop an earthquake from happening? please tell me.

Extinction is part of God's bigger plan, look around the world and you will see. I think if you eat a potato, you are a murderer because lets face it, you took a life. Should the potato court be allowed to hang you for it (that is if they are provided with a voice yet it would be fair)? Its absurd right, well its seems logical and fair but absurd as well, same is your question, it seems logical and fair but absurd. Its vague on the terms its using. Its not sure of who God is and what he is bound or not bound to do.

Should God stop a murderer from murdering a man? why? Why should he stop it?

because God is all loving and good, only that's why?
or
because you would stop it if you saw it?

well then you have reached the answer yourself.

God dint make any guns, nor he created the atomic bomb, this is the price of a free will universe and if you can not cope with it or fully understand it then stop complaining. There is a reason God commanded virtue, read the Bible its for you as well. And you kept it and loved your neighbour as yourself, we wouldn't have had the trouble to start with.

The sheer arrogance of man to Judge what he admits he doesn't understand.
Amazing.

PaulSacramento wrote:The sheer arrogance of man to Judge what he admits he doesn't understand.
Amazing.

Love that qoute, it's a keeper.


Dan

Thanks.

We always have to ask ourselves, how much do we want God to intervene?
I mean, where do we draw the line?
Should God only intervene when death is on the line? what about adultery or homosexuality or S&M or Bondage? what about an abortion?
How should God intervene? Should he just "zap" the POTENTIAL sinner? ( remember that NO SIN or evil act has been commited yet)
Since God knows all, should he just prevent any potential sinner from being born?
Should he wipe out an entire race or group pf people because he knows ( and we don't of course) what they will do?
How would we judge God then?
Imagine God wiping out millions of Germans in 1932 so that the Nazi's would never have happened, what would people think since the Nazi attrocites would NEVER have been commited all that anyone would have know was that God wiped out millions of people for NO REASON that we know of.

neo-x wrote:This is so clichéd now that I even do not wanna post but seeing that this is hanging on more than it deserves, I am going to say this once. God stops evil, God prevents a lot of things from happening as well. Someone has to die, it is their time, everyone has to die, their is a time fixed for everything. If God steps in and prevents any death from ever happening, you'd have a full blown earth with humans falling from the sides (no im not a flat earther). The truth is, that God never fully interferes in our realm, we are accountable for what we do. He only interferes directly where it is part of the bigger picture. God will not melt a gun in someones hand or stop your heart becuase you were about to steal or lie. This is not the God of the Bible and this is where you are wrong because you are trying to form a god according to your own version of Good and evil.

Let me ask you, have you never done something wrong? if you have then by God's standards you will die, plain and simple. Because all sin in punishable by death. Lie, rape, steal, every act that is outside of God's favor is a sin and therefore would be punished - in a free will universe. It is only Christ who saves us. I do not really care what standard you have, in theism God is the standard and only that counts.

Think about it, this is such a stupid question that I am baffled why you are so hung on it.

Should God stop an earthquake from happening? please tell me.

Extinction is part of God's bigger plan, look around the world and you will see. I think if you eat a potato, you are a murderer because lets face it, you took a life. Should the potato court be allowed to hang you for it (that is if they are provided with a voice yet it would be fair)? Its absurd right, well its seems logical and fair but absurd as well, same is your question, it seems logical and fair but absurd. Its vague on the terms its using. Its not sure of who God is and what he is bound or not bound to do.

Should God stop a murderer from murdering a man? why? Why should he stop it?

because God is all loving and good, only that's why?
or
because you would stop it if you saw it?

well then you have reached the answer yourself.

God dint make any guns, nor he created the atomic bomb, this is the price of a free will universe and if you can not cope with it or fully understand it then stop complaining. There is a reason God commanded virtue, read the Bible its for you as well. And you kept it and loved your neighbour as yourself, we wouldn't have had the trouble to start with.

Maybe God should have made us better. Maybe he should have made a world where earthquakes arent necessary and dont happen. Maybe if God is perfect then he should have made a perfect creation instead of a very flawed one.

PaulSacramento wrote:Thanks.

We always have to ask ourselves, how much do we want God to intervene?
I mean, where do we draw the line?
Should God only intervene when death is on the line? what about adultery or homosexuality or S&M or Bondage? what about an abortion?
How should God intervene? Should he just "zap" the POTENTIAL sinner? ( remember that NO SIN or evil act has been commited yet)
Since God knows all, should he just prevent any potential sinner from being born?
Should he wipe out an entire race or group pf people because he knows ( and we don't of course) what they will do?
How would we judge God then?
Imagine God wiping out millions of Germans in 1932 so that the Nazi's would never have happened, what would people think since the Nazi attrocites would NEVER have been commited all that anyone would have know was that God wiped out millions of people for NO REASON that we know of.

God intervened when he struck down Ananias and Sapphira for claiming they had given all the money from a sold property to the church when they hadnt.

Maybe God should have made us better. Maybe he should have made a world where earthquakes arent necessary and dont happen. Maybe if God is perfect then he should have made a perfect creation instead of a very flawed one.

you know what, you are right, I mean look at the world around us, how flawed it us. Physics is flawed since it causes earthquakes, makes our planet go around and keeps it active. No one should have had teeth, especially animals since they kill for food and more so we do. No creation should have had the ability to reason or have proper brains. The sun burns because of the existence of chemical laws which when discovered were used to create fire and then a century ago or so the atomic power, clearly that has to go out too. Look at the water cycle and the earth geographical features which causes tremendous floods, how flawed! There should have been no death ever, we'd rather have a planet full of people standing (humanity would soon reach a point where their numbers would too big to have more than any space of land then the ones they occupy while standing) with no extra room as billions of people would be roaming the Earth since the beginning and not to mention dinosaurs, and all manner of extinct species including extinct homo species and animals, boy that would be a truly happy-perfect world, would't it? No death, just tons of [poop] and people, but we are happy to live with that forever than let any creature die. No, no, and what if someone wants to die, clearly he can't commit suicide, and he cant die as well, bored old people sitting and doing nothing, I mean what haste would you have to do things in life if you know you would already be here forever and ever. More so, all serial rapist and murderers would be on the street after a few hundred years, I mean no one can have them forever in prison if you cant die, we would have to make room for new criminals as well.

And when all of this is going south we might even get ourselves a new planet, you know for reasons very obvious. And I wonder how will we manage that? seeing with all our knowledge we have practically have give our selves the potential of taking us all back to the stone age in just 400 years, thanks to the atomic theory, how long will we manage a perfect world as our next one? only time will tell.

But you are right, God is clearly the guy to be blamed for all of this mess not us, I mean what if we invented guns and bombs, clearly God is the guy responsible since he made us in the first place and these chemicals, these laws of nature as well. We have seen the error of God's ways and we can conclude he is clearly not the guy to be be given a job for such a big thing as creation and its systems.

Well, Mag, I wish you could have a world like you imagined and try to live in it, seriously this poor-god-made-world, pathetic and crawling with problems and imperfections is clearly not the best place to live.

God intervened when he struck down Ananias and Sapphira for claiming they had given all the money from a sold property to the church when they hadnt.

So you believe the event actually happened the way its described?

neo-x wrote:

Maybe God should have made us better. Maybe he should have made a world where earthquakes arent necessary and dont happen. Maybe if God is perfect then he should have made a perfect creation instead of a very flawed one.

you know what, you are right, I mean look at the world around us, how flawed it us. Physics is flawed since it causes earthquakes, makes our planet go around and keeps it active. No one should have had teeth, especially animals since they kill for food and more so we do. No creation should have had the ability to reason or have proper brains. The sun burns because of the existence of chemical laws which when discovered were used to create fire and then a century ago or so the atomic power, clearly that has to go out too. Look at the water cycle and the earth geographical features which causes tremendous floods, how flawed! There should have been no death ever, we'd rather have a planet full of people standing (humanity would soon reach a point where their numbers would too big to have more than any space of land then the ones they occupy while standing) with no extra room as billions of people would be roaming the Earth since the beginning and not to mention dinosaurs, and all manner of extinct species including extinct homo species and animals, boy that would be a truly happy-perfect world, would't it? No death, just tons of [poop] and people, but we are happy to live with that forever than let any creature die. No, no, and what if someone wants to die, clearly he can't commit suicide, and he cant die as well, bored old people sitting and doing nothing, I mean what haste would you have to do things in life if you know you would already be here forever and ever. More so, all serial rapist and murderers would be on the street after a few hundred years, I mean no one can have them forever in prison if you cant die, we would have to make room for new criminals as well.

And when all of this is going south we might even get ourselves a new planet, you know for reasons very obvious. And I wonder how will we manage that? seeing with all our knowledge we have practically have give our selves the potential of taking us all back to the stone age in just 400 years, thanks to the atomic theory, how long will we manage a perfect world as our next one? only time will tell.

But you are right, God is clearly the guy to be blamed for all of this mess not us, I mean what if we invented guns and bombs, clearly God is the guy responsible since he made us in the first place and these chemicals, these laws of nature as well. We have seen the error of God's ways and we can conclude he is clearly not the guy to be be given a job for such a big thing as creation and its systems.

Well, Mag, I wish you could have a world like you imagined and try to live in it, seriously this poor-god-made-world, pathetic and crawling with problems and imperfections is clearly not the best place to live.

So youre saying that God is not capable of making a world where death and suffering do not occur?