Eternal Security and Apostacy

[RickD]

Rick, I just hope that your resurrection body doesn't still have that same evil clown face!

Evil? Philip, I think my Klown face is angelic!

[RickD]

Okay so here's the standard question: Can a professed believer prove by word or deed that he was never a believer?

I would say, maybe. But there are examples that probably only God knows, and this professed believer will find out when he dies.

If the answer is maybe then at most one can have is a moral assurance, not an absolute one.

Byblos, when God has forgiven our sins through Christ, He has forgiven all of our sins, Past, present, and future. We can have absolute assurance, because God has promised us eternal life, and has guaranteed that promise, by His pledge of the indwelling Holy Spirit. That means God has sealed us, in Him, through Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Our everlasting life wasn't gained by our works, or our perseverance. So, our everlasting life can't be lost by our lack of works, or lack of our perseverance. God will persevere in us. It's His promise. Our assurance is guaranteed, and absolute, because God is absolute, and unchanging. Therefore, His promises are absolute, and unchanging, even though we fail.
Thank God, my faith is in Him, not in my strength, or my perseverance.

Byblos, I would also say, contrary to Catholic doctrine, there are no mortal sins for one who is a saved, child of God. Like I stated before, all of our sins are forgiven. That includes any future sins, even those that we haven't specifically repented of. I would argue that a true child of God, one who has the indwelling Holy Spirit, would never deny Christ, or the Holy Spirit. That denial some refer to as the unforgivable sin. True believers have already put their faith in Christ, and God lives in them, in the person of the Holy Spirit. Only true children of God have the indwelling Holy Spirit, that pledge from God, of His promise of everlasting life.

[Icthus]

Okay so here's the standard question: Can a professed believer prove by word or deed that he was never a believer?

I would say, maybe. But there are examples that probably only God knows, and this professed believer will find out when he dies.

If the answer is maybe then at most one can have is a moral assurance, not an absolute one.

Byblos, when God has forgiven our sins through Christ, He has forgiven all of our sins, Past, present, and future. We can have absolute assurance, because God has promised us eternal life, and has guaranteed that promise, by His pledge of the indwelling Holy Spirit. That means God has sealed us, in Him, through Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Our everlasting life wasn't gained by our works, or our perseverance. So, our everlasting life can't be lost by our lack of works, or lack of our perseverance. God will persevere in us. It's His promise. Our assurance is guaranteed, and absolute, because God is absolute, and unchanging. Therefore, His promises are absolute, and unchanging, even though we fail. Thank God, my faith is in Him, not in my strength, or my perseverance.

Very prettily put. And it matches your signature so well.

[B. W.]

Very good answers …

Here are two more points to ponder:

Point One:

So what of Apostasy? Can a true born again believer in Christ apostate?

What does the bible say about this?

Point Two:

Back to the point of losing salvation – where in the bible does it specifically state one can?

Remember the Law of Non-Contradiction and what Jesus so said on this matter as well as Paul, the OT, etc.
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[RickD]

B.W., could you define apostasy, for the sake of clarity?
Do you mean it in terms of renouncing Christ, to the point of losing ones salvation? Or maybe, renouncing Christ, not to the point of losing one's salvation, but perhaps losing one's heavenly rewards?

[Byblos]

Okay so here's the standard question: Can a professed believer prove by word or deed that he was never a believer?

I would say, maybe. But there are examples that probably only God knows, and this professed believer will find out when he dies.

If the answer is maybe then at most one can have is a moral assurance, not an absolute one.

Byblos, when God has forgiven our sins through Christ, He has forgiven all of our sins, Past, present, and future. We can have absolute assurance, because God has promised us eternal life, and has guaranteed that promise, by His pledge of the indwelling Holy Spirit. That means God has sealed us, in Him, through Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Our everlasting life wasn't gained by our works, or our perseverance. So, our everlasting life can't be lost by our lack of works, or lack of our perseverance. God will persevere in us. It's His promise. Our assurance is guaranteed, and absolute, because God is absolute, and unchanging. Therefore, His promises are absolute, and unchanging, even though we fail.
Thank God, my faith is in Him, not in my strength, or my perseverance.

Byblos, I would also say, contrary to Catholic doctrine, there are no mortal sins for one who is a saved, child of God. Like I stated before, all of our sins are forgiven. That includes any future sins, even those that we haven't specifically repented of. I would argue that a true child of God, one who has the indwelling Holy Spirit, would never deny Christ, or the Holy Spirit. That denial some refer to as the unforgivable sin. True believers have already put their faith in Christ, and God lives in them, in the person of the Holy Spirit. Only true children of God have the indwelling Holy Spirit, that pledge from God, of His promise of everlasting life.

Well thank you for the sermon Rick, I think we've performed this dance once or twice so I won't do the steps again. The question I asked was very specific, to which you answered with a 'maybe'. Now you seem to have changed your mind and the answer is no, which is fine, either way you've answered my question so again, thanks.

[Jac3510]

Okay so here's the standard question: Can a professed believer prove by word or deed that he was never a believer?

I would say, maybe. But there are examples that probably only God knows, and this professed believer will find out when he dies.

If the answer is maybe then at most one can have is a moral assurance, not an absolute one.

Byblos, when God has forgiven our sins through Christ, He has forgiven all of our sins, Past, present, and future. We can have absolute assurance, because God has promised us eternal life, and has guaranteed that promise, by His pledge of the indwelling Holy Spirit. That means God has sealed us, in Him, through Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Our everlasting life wasn't gained by our works, or our perseverance. So, our everlasting life can't be lost by our lack of works, or lack of our perseverance. God will persevere in us. It's His promise. Our assurance is guaranteed, and absolute, because God is absolute, and unchanging. Therefore, His promises are absolute, and unchanging, even though we fail.
Thank God, my faith is in Him, not in my strength, or my perseverance.

Byblos, I would also say, contrary to Catholic doctrine, there are no mortal sins for one who is a saved, child of God. Like I stated before, all of our sins are forgiven. That includes any future sins, even those that we haven't specifically repented of. I would argue that a true child of God, one who has the indwelling Holy Spirit, would never deny Christ, or the Holy Spirit. That denial some refer to as the unforgivable sin. True believers have already put their faith in Christ, and God lives in them, in the person of the Holy Spirit. Only true children of God have the indwelling Holy Spirit, that pledge from God, of His promise of everlasting life.

Byblos is right

On a related note, I like what Bob Wilkin said about people who deny eternal security (Catholics, Calvinists, and Arminians):

"I don't know where I'm going when I die, and if you give me five minutes, I can help you not know where you're going, too!"

[RickD]

Okay so here's the standard question: Can a professed believer prove by word or deed that he was never a believer?

I would say, maybe. But there are examples that probably only God knows, and this professed believer will find out when he dies.

If the answer is maybe then at most one can have is a moral assurance, not an absolute one.

Byblos, when God has forgiven our sins through Christ, He has forgiven all of our sins, Past, present, and future. We can have absolute assurance, because God has promised us eternal life, and has guaranteed that promise, by His pledge of the indwelling Holy Spirit. That means God has sealed us, in Him, through Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Our everlasting life wasn't gained by our works, or our perseverance. So, our everlasting life can't be lost by our lack of works, or lack of our perseverance. God will persevere in us. It's His promise. Our assurance is guaranteed, and absolute, because God is absolute, and unchanging. Therefore, His promises are absolute, and unchanging, even though we fail.
Thank God, my faith is in Him, not in my strength, or my perseverance.

Byblos, I would also say, contrary to Catholic doctrine, there are no mortal sins for one who is a saved, child of God. Like I stated before, all of our sins are forgiven. That includes any future sins, even those that we haven't specifically repented of. I would argue that a true child of God, one who has the indwelling Holy Spirit, would never deny Christ, or the Holy Spirit. That denial some refer to as the unforgivable sin. True believers have already put their faith in Christ, and God lives in them, in the person of the Holy Spirit. Only true children of God have the indwelling Holy Spirit, that pledge from God, of His promise of everlasting life.

Well thank you for the sermon Rick, I think we've performed this dance once or twice so I won't do the steps again. The question I asked was very specific, to which you answered with a 'maybe'. Now you seem to have changed your mind and the answer is no, which is fine, either way you've answered my question so again, thanks.

No, Byblos, it's still maybe, from my point of view. Or, if you'd prefer, "I might know, or might not know". Sometimes someone could live his entire life, seeming to be a believer to everyone else, but he really never put his faith in Christ. OR, someone is a believer, falls away, seems to be an unbeliever, or apostate, but is still an eternally secure believer, who has fallen away. OR, I didn't understand your question, otherwise you wouldn't have posted the response you did. So, whatever the case is, one or both of us isn't understanding the other.

[RickD]

Jac3510 wrote:
Byblos is right

Ok. Jac. Maybe you could help me understand, what is obviously going over my head. But make sure you use small words, because I am slow to learn.

Just for the record, Jac, do you believe God has given you absolute assurance of salvation? Or, do you only have moral assurance?

[Jac3510]

Jac3510 wrote:
Byblos is right

Ok. Jac. Maybe you could help me understand, what is obviously going over my head. But make sure you use small words, because I am slow to learn.

Just for the record, Jac, do you believe God has given you absolute assurance of salvation? Or, do you only have moral assurance?

I don't know how to make any clearer why Byblos, Jlay, and I have been saying to you on and off for a very long time now. You say you have absolute, objective assurance but then seem to allow the possibility that believers may not have been saved after all.

As for me, I have absolute, objective, no-matter-what assurance.

[RickD]

Jac3510 wrote:
Byblos is right

Ok. Jac. Maybe you could help me understand, what is obviously going over my head. But make sure you use small words, because I am slow to learn.

Just for the record, Jac, do you believe God has given you absolute assurance of salvation? Or, do you only have moral assurance?

I don't know how to make any clearer why Byblos, Jlay, and I have been saying to you on and off for a very long time now. You say you have absolute, objective assurance but then seem to allow the possibility that believers may not have been saved after all.

As for me, I have absolute, objective, no-matter-what assurance.

Good, I think some of you may have been misunderstanding me. Hopefully we can clear this up. Most likely, I haven't been properly saying what I really mean. I believe a true child of God, from the moment he has faith in Christ, cannot lose his salvation. But, there may be those who on the surface, appear to be believers, but never actually put their faith in Christ. Any believer(true, born again, child of God), cannot lose his salvation, period. It's those who go through all the motions of being a believer, and never put their faith in Christ for salvation, that I'm saying may not have been saved afterall. And, I'm saying that I may not know if someone put his faith in Christ, or just appeared to have. That's why I said I can't know if someone else is saved. I just know God has given me "absolute, objective, no-matter-what assurance.", as you put it. And, that's how I get to the "maybe" answer of Byblos' question. They may prove to me in word or deed that they were never a true believer, or they may not prove to me. Someone else may be able to discern if they put their faith in Christ, or maybe they may not discern. This person, may appear in many ways to be a true believer, but maybe only God knows for sure.

[Jac3510]

You keep using the term "true believer." What is the difference in a believer and a true believer? I pointed you to John 12:42, and you said you didn't know whether or not they were saved. So what makes a person a "true" believer? Are there any believers that aren't "true" believers?

[RickD]

You keep using the term "true believer." What is the difference in a believer and a true believer? I pointed you to John 12:42, and you said you didn't know whether or not they were saved. So what makes a person a "true" believer? Are there any believers that aren't "true" believers?

What you call a believer, and I called a true believer, are probably the same. I'm just making the distinction between a true believer, and what some see as someone who looks on the surface to be a believer, but may never have been. It's kinda like I use "true Christian", and "nominal christian". I'm just trying to be clear. A true believer, or true child of God, is one who puts his faith in Christ, for salvation.
As far as John 12:42, just because I didn't know if they were saved, doesn't mean they weren't. Was their faith in Christ for their salvation? If yes, then they were saved. Did I know if they put their faith in Christ? No. What I try to say for clarity, I may be overstating, leading to confusion. Sorry.

Jac, what I noticed, is that what you and I believe about salvation, is very close. Almost exactly the same. We just say the same thing in different ways. Almost like we're baking the same recipe, but we put in the ingredients in a different order. When we're done, we both have the same brownies, we just used the same recipe, in our own way.

[Jac3510]

Let me be charitable and assume that we mean the same thing, and let me be so arrogant as to be pastoral for a moment.

My father was told something by his father years ago that I have found well worth repeating. "Do not speak so as to be understand, but speak so as not to be misunderstood."

When you say "true believer" you implicitly suggest a category of "false believer." If "true believer" just equals "believer" then drop the term "true." True believers aren't children of God. Believers are children of God. The former is vague and easy to import a lot of theology into. The latter is clear, crisp, and concise. The former is easy to misunderstand and so easy to agree with. The latter is hard to misunderstand and therefore subject to a lot of disagreement.

This applies directly to John 12:42. It's simple a matter, to me, of having the courage of your convictions. The text says the believed. So when you ask did they believe, my answer is an unapologetic 'YES'! How do I know? BECAUSE THE TEXT SAYS SO. If there is some way that they did NOT really believe, then we are right back to suggesting different kinds of faith. Then how do you know what kind you have? How do I? Then we're left with moral assurance, not logical assurance. We cannot KNOW we are saved.

So again, if you agree with me, then let me again just suggest standing firm and unapologetically on it. Drop the qualifiers. Jesus didn't say "Everyone who TRULY believes in Me has everlasting life." Follow His lead and just say all BELIEVERS have everlasting life, and if that means that some people like the pharisees in John 12:42 are believers and therefore saved, then so be it.

[RickD]

When you say "true believer" you implicitly suggest a category of "false believer." If "true believer" just equals "believer" then drop the term "true."

I admit there is a category of false believer, though. A false believer is one who appears to be saved, but has never put his faith in Christ. Some nominal christians fall into this category. So, while you and I agree that a believer is one who puts his faith in Christ, there are others here that equate a nominal belief with a saving faith. So, for the sake of discussions between you and me, I'll try to drop the "true".
My making the distinction came from a thread a while back when someone said XX% of people in the US are Christians. Then I made the distinction between nominal and true Christians.

So again, if you agree with me, then let me again just suggest standing firm and unapologetically on it. Drop the qualifiers. Jesus didn't say "Everyone who TRULY believes in Me has everlasting life." Follow His lead and just say all BELIEVERS have everlasting life, and if that means that some people like the pharisees in John 12:42 are believers and therefore saved, then so be it.

I understand what you're saying Jac. I just want to make the distinction to people that not everyone who seems to be a believer, is really a believer. And, only believers have God's assurance. Remember, there are people here that lump "believers" and nominal Christians into the same group. I think the distinction is important.