Evidence for God from Science

@paul
AGAIN please read and know THAT i never said to predict when it'll happen as far as date is concerned. that is wrong to do just as you pointed out how people have done in the past. i am talking on the premise that by believing in the rapture what position do you take MEANING do you believe in pre trib, mid trib, post trib/pre wrath, ect, ect...? most of the time i enjoy reading your posts and agree with things you say paul so please could you answer my questions instead of giving answers that do not pertain to what i am talking about. i will say this again when do you think the rapture will be MEANING pre trib, mid trib, post trib ect..? why is it important to know the timing of this event timing MEANING pre trib, mid trib, post trib, ect, ect..? How does it affect us to know the timing of this event? how did we come to the belief that we hold to now concerning this topic and why?

I understood your question but I don't think you can divorce trying to predict the time of the second coming with the rapture or any notion of Pre/mid/post tribulation and that is why so many try to find out the time.
But to focus solely on your question:

when do you think the rapture will be MEANING pre trib, mid trib, post trib ect..? why is it important to know the timing of this event timing MEANING pre trib, mid trib, post trib, ect, ect..? How does it affect us to know the timing of this event? how did we come to the belief that we hold to now concerning this topic and why?

That would depend on how one understands the verse in Revelation AND Paul's view in his letter to the Thesselonians and Christ's words on the matter( and any other literature one may hold as informative of course).
The issues seems to be not so much what the rapture is ( though that in of itself is something) but what we view AS the tribulation.
It seems to me that the relevant passages can lend themselves to be interpreted in far too man ways to make a 100% certain comment.
I think that it may be Revelation that causes some "confusion" on the matter.
Jesus seems to say that the rapture will happen without warning, before His second Coming, while Paul seems to imply that ON His second coming it will happen, but those "differences" may be simply semantics since the actual "time frame" may be negligible.

PaulSacramento wrote:

@paul
AGAIN please read and know THAT i never said to predict when it'll happen as far as date is concerned. that is wrong to do just as you pointed out how people have done in the past. i am talking on the premise that by believing in the rapture what position do you take MEANING do you believe in pre trib, mid trib, post trib/pre wrath, ect, ect...? most of the time i enjoy reading your posts and agree with things you say paul so please could you answer my questions instead of giving answers that do not pertain to what i am talking about. i will say this again when do you think the rapture will be MEANING pre trib, mid trib, post trib ect..? why is it important to know the timing of this event timing MEANING pre trib, mid trib, post trib, ect, ect..? How does it affect us to know the timing of this event? how did we come to the belief that we hold to now concerning this topic and why?

I understood your question but I don't think you can divorce trying to predict the time of the second coming with the rapture or any notion of Pre/mid/post tribulation and that is why so many try to find out the time.
But to focus solely on your question:

when do you think the rapture will be MEANING pre trib, mid trib, post trib ect..? why is it important to know the timing of this event timing MEANING pre trib, mid trib, post trib, ect, ect..? How does it affect us to know the timing of this event? how did we come to the belief that we hold to now concerning this topic and why?

That would depend on how one understands the verse in Revelation AND Paul's view in his letter to the Thesselonians and Christ's words on the matter( and any other literature one may hold as informative of course).
The issues seems to be not so much what the rapture is ( though that in of itself is something) but what we view AS the tribulation.
It seems to me that the relevant passages can lend themselves to be interpreted in far too man ways to make a 100% certain comment.
I think that it may be Revelation that causes some "confusion" on the matter.
Jesus seems to say that the rapture will happen without warning, before His second Coming, while Paul seems to imply that ON His second coming it will happen, but those "differences" may be simply semantics since the actual "time frame" may be negligible.

i am going to have to disagree with you paul. first understanding the rapture timing does not make it connected to predicting the time of the second coming as far as date and time are concerned that is a completely false statement. another thing we must do is not use any other literature when coming to the conclusion of the rapture timing MEANING pre trib, mid trib, post trib/pre wrath, ect, ect... it should be solely based upon God's word and God did not make His word hard to understand nor is it that the book of Revelation complicates this issue man does. i will agree that because of man's interpretation of the tribulation is what leads to the confusion and i will agree that you were right in that statement; however, you were wrong on many points such as the above stated ones and also saying that Jesus says it will happen without warning. what paul said isn't different from what Jesus said it coincides with what He said. like i mentioned before it is man who makes it difficult when God laid it out to us not just in the new testament but also the old. once again you have yet to answer my questions which i have been patiently waiting for. may you please do so; in fact, nobody has really answered my questions.

Coming like a thief in the night is pretty much as "without warning" as you can get.
But it's fine if you don't agree, I was just stating an opinion, that's all.
My personal view is that the passages ALLOW for various interpretaions ( hence we have just that) and, in all honesty, I couldn't care less about when the rapture happens or even IF it happens.
To me, it's no biggie and never been one of the things I have ever given much thought and have always left that one 100% up to God and Christ.

I come from the Harold Camping school of date choosing. If we keep choosing the dates of the end of the world, we're bound to be correct on one of our guesses. Haven't you ever heard, "If at first you don't succeed, try, try, again"?
That was Harold Camping's motto. He also seemed to follow the saying credited to P. T. Barnum: "There's a sucker born every minute".

People are starting to talk about that the Olympic games logo reads like Zion.

1over137 wrote:People are starting to talk about that the Olympic games logo reads like Zion.

Hana, don't you read left to right first, and then go down, and read left to right again? That would say "ZOIN", not ZION.

RickD wrote:

1over137 wrote:People are starting to talk about that the Olympic games logo reads like Zion.

Hana, don't you read left to right first, and then go down, and read left to right again? That would say "ZOIN", not ZION.

And if you're an Aarab, you would read it right to left, top to bottom which would make it OZNI. Hey that sounds suspiciously like the name of the ousted Egyptian President (HOSNI). Is that like a prophecy or a conspiracy (or both)?

PaulSacramento wrote:Coming like a thief in the night is pretty much as "without warning" as you can get.
But it's fine if you don't agree, I was just stating an opinion, that's all.
My personal view is that the passages ALLOW for various interpretaions ( hence we have just that) and, in all honesty, I couldn't care less about when the rapture happens or even IF it happens.
To me, it's no biggie and never been one of the things I have ever given much thought and have always left that one 100% up to God and Christ.

This is why it is important to read everything prior to and afterwards because when Christ comes as a thief it doesn't mean we dont know the timing for the rapture timing meaning pre, mid, post trib/pre wrath, ect, ect...it means we dont know the date or time of Christ's coming. next thing is how can you say you couldn't care less? are not his words important enough to look past our theologies and read His word for the answers? Did God not mention to us this event with enough clear information to us when it would occur meaning pre, mid, post trib/pre wrath? are you trying to tell me that prophecy is not important so why bother? with this kind of attitude that would be like saying sometime 2000 years ago that you could care less about the prophecies pertaining to the messiah it's not clear enough and can be interpreted too many ways when we all know that God was pretty clear how he would come and why he would come. This is why a lot of the jewish people couldn't recognize messiah for who he was because of that kind of mind set. Christ laid out in specific detail the events leading to His second coming and I for one think it is important to understand regardless what anyone else thinks. I also think it's very rude that people have basically hijacked the thread with nonsense instead of getting into discussion on this matter. the only person who has kind of said anything is paul but even he has beat around the bush. this is what i meant when i said that believers take this topic as taboo. whatever i guess...

Zionist wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Coming like a thief in the night is pretty much as "without warning" as you can get.
But it's fine if you don't agree, I was just stating an opinion, that's all.
My personal view is that the passages ALLOW for various interpretaions ( hence we have just that) and, in all honesty, I couldn't care less about when the rapture happens or even IF it happens.
To me, it's no biggie and never been one of the things I have ever given much thought and have always left that one 100% up to God and Christ.

This is why it is important to read everything prior to and afterwards because when Christ comes as a thief it doesn't mean we dont know the timing for the rapture timing meaning pre, mid, post trib/pre wrath, ect, ect...it means we dont know the date or time of Christ's coming. next thing is how can you say you couldn't care less? are not his words important enough to look past our theologies and read His word for the answers? Did God not mention to us this event with enough clear information to us when it would occur meaning pre, mid, post trib/pre wrath? are you trying to tell me that prophecy is not important so why bother? with this kind of attitude that would be like saying sometime 2000 years ago that you could care less about the prophecies pertaining to the messiah it's not clear enough and can be interpreted too many ways when we all know that God was pretty clear how he would come and why he would come. This is why a lot of the jewish people couldn't recognize messiah for who he was because of that kind of mind set. Christ laid out in specific detail the events leading to His second coming and I for one think it is important to understand regardless what anyone else thinks. I also think it's very rude that people have basically hijacked the thread with nonsense instead of getting into discussion on this matter. the only person who has kind of said anything is paul but even he has beat around the bush. this is what i meant when i said that believers take this topic as taboo. whatever i guess...

Honestly no, I don't really care about the time frame of the rapture.
Maybe because I deal so much with JW's ( family) and they are so obbessed with the date of the "end of days" and all that leads to it and during it and after it, that I just have heard it all before so many times and in so many different ways that, in all honesty, I don't care.
It is NOT a matter of salvation AND the words of Jesus in Acts 1 make it clear ( to me at least) that we shouldn't be concerned and that we should focus on other things - being witnesses to Christ.

But can I ask you a question though?
WHen you say that Jesus gave out specific details about His second coming, which ones are you referring to?

@Paul
i haven't been on for awhile been very busy with work and what not but i will most definitely answer your question. sorry for the late reply

PaulSacramento wrote:

Zionist wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Coming like a thief in the night is pretty much as "without warning" as you can get.
But it's fine if you don't agree, I was just stating an opinion, that's all.
My personal view is that the passages ALLOW for various interpretaions ( hence we have just that) and, in all honesty, I couldn't care less about when the rapture happens or even IF it happens.
To me, it's no biggie and never been one of the things I have ever given much thought and have always left that one 100% up to God and Christ.

This is why it is important to read everything prior to and afterwards because when Christ comes as a thief it doesn't mean we dont know the timing for the rapture timing meaning pre, mid, post trib/pre wrath, ect, ect...it means we dont know the date or time of Christ's coming. next thing is how can you say you couldn't care less? are not his words important enough to look past our theologies and read His word for the answers? Did God not mention to us this event with enough clear information to us when it would occur meaning pre, mid, post trib/pre wrath? are you trying to tell me that prophecy is not important so why bother? with this kind of attitude that would be like saying sometime 2000 years ago that you could care less about the prophecies pertaining to the messiah it's not clear enough and can be interpreted too many ways when we all know that God was pretty clear how he would come and why he would come. This is why a lot of the jewish people couldn't recognize messiah for who he was because of that kind of mind set. Christ laid out in specific detail the events leading to His second coming and I for one think it is important to understand regardless what anyone else thinks. I also think it's very rude that people have basically hijacked the thread with nonsense instead of getting into discussion on this matter. the only person who has kind of said anything is paul but even he has beat around the bush. this is what i meant when i said that believers take this topic as taboo. whatever i guess...

Honestly no, I don't really care about the time frame of the rapture.
Maybe because I deal so much with JW's ( family) and they are so obbessed with the date of the "end of days" and all that leads to it and during it and after it, that I just have heard it all before so many times and in so many different ways that, in all honesty, I don't care.
It is NOT a matter of salvation AND the words of Jesus in Acts 1 make it clear ( to me at least) that we shouldn't be concerned and that we should focus on other things - being witnesses to Christ.

But can I ask you a question though?
WHen you say that Jesus gave out specific details about His second coming, which ones are you referring to?

@paul
i said Jesus laid out in specific detail the events leading to His return so you actually misquoted me there but it's okay. If you want to know the events Christ told us would lead to His return then read Matthew 24 there Christ lays out in detail things we can expect prior to His return. If you want to get into a discussion about the events im all for it. i for one think it's good for believers to discuss end time events even Christ himself wanted us to be aware and to understand so long as we don't get consumed in it and allow ourselves to be paranoid or fanatical over the matter which unfortunately a lot of people can be. i would like to apologize if i seem argumentative and im sorry about your family obsessing over dating end times. i know how JW's can be with that so i would like to extend apologies to you cuz im sure it's a touchy thing for you but i would also like to say that you shouldn't allow that to hinder your studies surrounding the end times. i truly feel that God would want us to be aware and knowledgeable concerning this touchy area which was what i was basically trying to say. i will keep you and your family in prayer paul. if you want to keep the discussion going im all for it but if you don't i understand.

I think that God wants us to know and to be clear about that fact that IT IS coming.
It is just that Jesus made it very clear that the "details" of such are NOT our concern.
As Human Jesus said He did NOT know the timing and as the resurrected Christ he said that it is NOT for us to know the time.
Good enough for me.
Will it come? Yes.
Will there be signs?
There have been since Christ walked the earth.
Are we to be ready and to be witnesses to Christ? Yes, 100%

I'm a simple post-trib believer. The question should be asked "When does the resurrection take place?" We might see some pre-tribs reconsidering their belief.

@1stjohn
you know you're the first person to actually answer part of my question. i would like to know what made you draw your conclusion to post trib point of view if you don't mind discussing it. if you can break down why and how you came to the belief you hold now concerning the timing of the rapture or gathering to Christ. i do enjoy discussing end time events so i look forward to your reply.

@paul
i do agree with some of your post; however, when you say details of such are not our concern i do not agree with this statement because it implies that God would not have us to be aware of events leading to Christs return. my question is this if we're not to be concerned with events or details of things leading to His 2nd coming then why would God even warn us or give us information concerning it to begin with not just in the NT but the OT as well? also when you say that jesus did not know the timing you again are assuming im trying to date and time His return which i am not. Christ understood the events leading to His coming and what would transpire and how the rapture would happen in fact he describes when it will happen in order of events but He did not know when it would occur meaning date and time. that only the father knows.