Evidence for God from Science

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

B. W. wrote:God have mercy on this nation unto repentance , amen…

Too late:

#1:Too many people in your nation just stay at home on election day (how stupid is that?)
#2: Baroque Osama will probably get a second term.
#3: Your president is pro-Muslim and anti-Israel.

Three strikes and you're out.

FL

Not so fast and furious yet big guy!

B.W. said: "Well Rick, anything that has to do with traditional marriage between one man and one woman is now anti-gay.

It is the tactic of the Left to polarize (divide people) by demonizing the opposition through intimidation (bullying).

I’d say, pass legislation in Congress that prevents Gays from suing minister, churches, that refuse to marry them, and the gay right movement will fade away. The left’s agenda is to destroy the Judaic/Christian heritage of the USA so that Govt becomes the peoples god. Christianity is the biggest hindrance to their goal and the second – why the 2’nd Amendment of our US Constitution.

The polarization attacks from the left on these two will increase, unless common sense prevails. Take away the financial incentive to destroy the Christianity, the gay rights issue will just fade away.

Who would of thought, just 2 years ago, just saying one believes in traditional marriage between one man and one woman would become a hate thought crime?

God have mercy on this nation unto repentance , amen…

B.W., you absolutely nailed it!!! And if ALL Christians across the U.S. would take an unashamed stand on this, the backlash would be deafening!

Hey, I've got family members that stay home on election day! I see no real problem with it if you don't like either nominee.

Stygian wrote:Hey, I've got family members that stay home on election day! I see no real problem with it if you don't like either nominee.

Since you have a democracy which was paid for by the blood of countless young men, I guess your family members are right in just staying home on voting day. Those young men are dead anyway and...who cares? There is certainly someting better to do than standing in line and waiting to vote! What the USA needs is a good strong leader who will save your economy a whole lot of money by abolishing elections! After all, barely 30% of eligible voters cast a ballot so the whole exercise is a big waste of time. And the nominees? Losers!

I can't wait for you guys to get the dictator you deserve!

FL

Yep, so many people are lazy and irresponsible when it comes to staying informed and voting appropriately. And some whine and moan about how all they see are flaws in ALL of the candidates, AS IF there were some "perfect" ones somewhere that should have run. They don't even see the value in eliminating those, amongst the choices, who are often vastly inferior. And there probably has never been a time when the differences between national candidates has been so extreme.

But every cycle of not voting by those who should have been informed and voted, the erosion of quality choices just gets worse and worse. As the parties see what lame candidates they were able to get elected, they'll just put forth and prop up more of the same, yet incrementally worse. And so the uniformed, truly stupid and those easily manipulated will continue to decide our elections. And people cant' tell me that they can't find at least ONE single candidate to vote for on an entire ballot. That's usually got to be a lie. Don't like most EQUALLY, then just don't vote for those races. But at least vote for others that are preferable - not perfect, maybe not even close, but that are, at least, PREFERABLE. As that DOES matter, especially over time. But people who don't vote might as well say that it truly doesn't matter whether or not we live in a dictatorship in which there's only ONE vote to be made, and that its newspapers all have the post-election headlines about the landslide results printed up weeks before.

I've many family members and friends in the military, so I deeply respect the troops of this country willing to fight. I myself am opposed to a majority of the wars America has been involved in, so I disagree with the statement of our democracy being "paid for by the blood of countless young men" and rather, that "countless young men are, and where, willing to die for it."

I'd argue there's a demographic of people that don't vote BECAUSE they're informed. They don't look for a perfect candidate and many realize that nobody can tell who is the 'lesser evil' until they're in office anyway (unless they have a long, long history of honesty in their previous work in the political arena, which is, again, quite rare). Many members of my family were really against Obama, but equally against McCain. They realized, and helped me realize, that you can't always make a decision between only two people for something as important as president of the United States. I come from a family that is neither Democrat or Republican (though many are registered as Republican).

As Benjamin Franklin once said, "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

I'd go on, but this seems like a discussion for a different thread (might consider starting one if it's considered relevant to GodAndScience). Chick-fil-a ring a bell to anyone?

Stygian wrote:I'd argue there's a demographic of people that don't vote BECAUSE they're informed.

There's a demographic of people who don't go to school BECAUSE they're informed.
There's a demographic of people who don't get vaccinated BECAUSE they're informed.
There's a demographic of people commit crimes BECAUSE they're informed.

See? you can justify all manner of civic irresponsibility!

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

Stygian wrote:I'd argue there's a demographic of people that don't vote BECAUSE they're informed.

There's a demographic of people who don't go to school BECAUSE they're informed.
There's a demographic of people who don't get vaccinated BECAUSE they're informed.
There's a demographic of people commit crimes BECAUSE they're informed.

See? you can justify all manner of civic irresponsibility!

FL

Well, FL, that is the best definition of Moral Relativism I have heard and now we see the fruits – whoops I said fruits – better change and say – we see the results…

Do you think there is a need to start a worldwide crusade against using the derogatory offensive word ‘FRUIT’ in the grocery stores, farms, tree farms, orchards, baking recipes, pies, etc?

Instead of the evil offensive word fruit we could instead - Soft Tree Seed Pods?

Whoops, can’t use the word soft either – so Tree Seed Pods it is then unless you can think of a better name need to rid the world of all evil offensive words…

We need to start a boycott of all restaurants, bakeries, Grocers, cooking shows, etc that use the word FRUIT PIES, or FRUIT TARTS, or FRUIT!!!

We need to bring out the Clowns in protest!

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

Stygian wrote:I'd argue there's a demographic of people that don't vote BECAUSE they're informed.

There's a demographic of people who don't go to school BECAUSE they're informed.
There's a demographic of people who don't get vaccinated BECAUSE they're informed.
There's a demographic of people commit crimes BECAUSE they're informed.

See? you can justify all manner of civic irresponsibility!

FL

First you need to explain why not voting is irresponsible. Voting doesn't make you smarter like school does (in government-run schools, I'd argue they do in many cases make people dumber, however). Voting doesn't protect you from illness like vaccinations do (but they've still been known to cause problems, as more people died from complications with the swine flu vaccine than those that actually died from the flu itself). And voting doesn't protect you from prison like refraining from breaking the law. I honestly don't appreciate how you've belittled my statement there, but I'm willing to forget about it. I feel you ignored much of what I even said.

To vote is to give someone else permission to run an aspect of your life. Some people don't want that. Refraining from voting isn't so much 'civil irresponsibility' so much as administrative criticism. I liked a lot of the things Obama stood for when he was running for president, but I knew he wouldn't follow through with them. I was right. I agreed with some things McCain stood for also, but my skeptical attitude toward presidents led me to believe, if he were elected, he too wouldn't have followed through.

But I digress (or rather we digress).

There are times when I find it very hard to vote.
My trust in politicians has all but vanished.
I do NOT like to vote for the "lesser of two evils" and I believe that tax payers deserve FAR better than that.
It is getting to the point that I MAY have to NOT vote at all if I do NOT have a candidate that I want to vote for.
I don't expect perfection, far from that, BUT I do expect to have a candidate that recognizes that Him and His party and the government work for ME, not the other way around.

Stygian wrote in response to Furstentum Liechtenstein: "I honestly don't appreciate how you've belittled my statement there"

Stygian, the irony of your comment is that IF Furstentum Liechtenstein were a candidate elected to office, your dislike of his statements or of ANYTHING he does (subsequent to his election) would truly be irrelevant. The only voice you actually had would have been neutralized by your non vote. To not vote and yet subsequently be upset at the comments, actions or leadership of those ultimately elected, seems quite sad.

Fact is, we live in an imperfect world with often-difficult, highly imperfect choices, and in which there are NO guaranteed outcomes. Their are evidences of past track records as potential indications of candidates' future actions, but that is all we have to go on. But these are the choices that GOD has given us. God gave us the opportunity to vote and I think He expects us to use it, especially as some votes have can have obvious moral implications (think Supreme Court nominees and abortion). I have noticed that many of those who don't vote out of supposed principles, also refuse to do so election after election. So I'm to believe that they NEVER have choices in which one is apparently better? Never?

And with our vote, just as in our own lives, we are to make decisions prayerfully. But God is the one that has the power to direct our paths - and the paths of those elected - according to His will. I think that is the very same thing we are to do with our political choices: Prayerfully make the best decision we can and then continue praying for the outcome, and as God so desires. As the OUTCOME is NOT our responsibility, nor is it within our power. I never pray for the one I vote for to win, but for God's will to be done. Throughout Scripture, God has used people as He so desired, and He so often has picked people with ton of flaws to do His will - spiritually, politically, militarily, etc, etc. Those that don't vote because they don't want to impact an outcome between their given choices are ironically doing so anyway. And precisely, because, at least indirectly, their non vote will help someone into office.

And this may seem contradictory to my point about our responsibility in voting, but perhaps the bigger fallacy is for someone to believe that their individual vote - or even the collective vote - is more important than the fact that is God that is actually guiding to entire process - as if we are to believe that somehow the ultimate outcome and ramifications aren't truly in God's hands. No, we're called to do OUR part (pray/decide/vote), but lets leave the outcomes and ramifications up to God. And as it is GOD Who ultimately chooses winners and losers, sometimes those He installs in office might include what we would call unthinkable choices (think Hitler, Stalin, etc), and yet God has eternal purposes of which we cannot fathom. But again, ONLY God is responsible for the ultimate outcomes, but He does give us a voice and often rewards and punishes societies based upon the collective hearts and morals behind our choices. Yet, often, He is also far more merciful than we should expect - even when our choices have been extremely unwise.

We vote, but it is GOD Who chooses leaders:

From John 19: " So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”

Daniel 2:21: "He changes times and seasons; He removes kings and sets up kings"

Romans 13:1: "... there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."

Deuteronomy 1:13-15: "Choose wise and discerning and experienced men from your tribes, and I will appoint them as your heads.’ “You answered me and said, ‘The thing which you have said to do is good.’ “So I took the heads of your tribes, wise and experienced men, and appointed them heads over you, leaders of thousands and of hundreds, of fifties and of tens, and officers for your tribes."

Other Bible passages related to voting:

Deuteronomy 16:18-20: "Appoint judges and officials for each of your tribes in every town the Lord your God is giving you, and they shall judge the people fairly. Do not pervert justice or show partiality. Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous. Follow justice and justice alone, so that you may live and possess the land the Lord your God is giving you."

Exodus 18:21-22: “Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens. “Let them judge the people at all times; and let it be that every major dispute they will bring to you, but every minor dispute they themselves will judge.

Interesting short commentary about Christians and voting: http://www.gotquestions.org/Christians-vote.html

Stygian wrote:First you need to explain why not voting is irresponsible.

Yesterday - as I got home from work and was pulling my car into the driveway - two young men dressed in black pants, white shirts and black ties were coming down the steps from my house. ''Jehovah's Witnesses,'' I thought, ''or Mormons.'' As I got out of my car and started up the steps, one man addressed me, ''Hello Sir! may I...'' I looked at the badge on his shirt: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and said ''Mormons! You're not Christians, you're polytheists!'' The other man then asked me. ''What is a polytheist?'' to which I answered, ''You don't know what polytheism is?! You've got a big problem!''

I don't discuss Jesus with Satan's emissaries because I've learned that it is pointless. Likewise, Stygian, if you can't understand with your own intelligence why deliberately not voting is harmful to your democracy, well...you deserve all the problems you've got and all the others that will come your way.

You may want to read and re-read and re-re-read Philip' post, above. Maybe a fellow American will be able to convince you of the error of your ways.

B. W. wrote:Do you think there is a need to start a worldwide crusade against using the derogatory offensive word ‘FRUIT’ in the grocery stores, farms, tree farms, orchards, baking recipes, pies, etc?

I find your use of the F-word most offensive and quite beneath a man of your education! My I suggest you supplant the F-word and use ''the progeny of a seed plant'' as in the progeny of a seed plant-cake or the progeny of a seed plant-salad.

+ + +

On a lighter note, here in the frozen wasteland where I live, it was reported today that Chick-fil-A restauraunts* were full of patrons buying chicken sandwiches, silently backing Chick-fil-A's president and his stance on traditional marriage. Apparently, there were several restaurants with block-long line-ups of people making a statement of approval for traditional marriage and the stance Chick-fil-A's owner/president has taken.

That, my irresponsible American non-voting friends, is what voting is all about.

FL

*This news item is all the more remarkable considering that Chic-fil-A is non-existant in Canada.

Wow, you guys are rough! I'll be refraining from voting this election too, I'm afraid. I can't in good conscience, vote the lesser of two evils. I can understand that those who do vote that way, do that according to their conscience. Call me an informed voter, who refuses to vote for Romney, because he is the lesser of two evils. I'm familiar with what he did in Massachusetts while he was governor. He put forward a state health care bill, that required people to have health insurance, or pay fines. He said he wasn't going to raise taxes, so instead, he raised fees. I'm more than frustrated with the candidates we are forced to choose from. So, I will not be voting again.

Philip wrote:Stygian, the irony of your comment is that IF Furstentum Liechtenstein were a candidate elected to office, your dislike of his statements or of ANYTHING he does (subsequent to his election) would truly be irrelevant. The only voice you actually had would have been neutralized by your non vote. To not vote and yet subsequently be upset at the comments, actions or leadership of those ultimately elected, seems quite sad.

I don't see how that's my only voice. If voting makes no difference (which if often doesn't), that voice is weak. And if that is indeed my only voice, then our system is flawed. Severely flawed.

Philip wrote:Fact is, we live in an imperfect world with often-difficult, highly imperfect choices, and in which there are NO guaranteed outcomes. Their are evidences of past track records as potential indications of candidates' future actions, but that is all we have to go on. But these are the choices that GOD has given us. God gave us the opportunity to vote and I think He expects us to use it, especially as some votes have can have obvious moral implications (think Supreme Court nominees and abortion). I have noticed that many of those who don't vote out of supposed principles, also refuse to do so election after election. So I'm to believe that they NEVER have choices in which one is apparently better? Never?

Why vote in a system where a majority of the choices are horrible, but some are less horrible? If it's horrible, it's not the work of God. The only legitimate laws come from God; not the government of man. These people running are not enacting His will, nor do I believe they ever will.

And Samuel told all the words of the Lord unto the people that asked of him a king. And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots. And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots. And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants. And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the Lord will not hear you in that day. [1 Samuel 8:10-18]

I choose not to vote not because I think neither is better than the other, but because I rarely see a candidate who I think will serve God or the people with full integrity. Again, even in a race between two evils, I will not vote for even the lesser of the two, for it too is evil.

Philip wrote:And with our vote, just as in our own lives, we are to make decisions prayerfully. But God is the one that has the power to direct our paths - and the paths of those elected - according to His will. I think that is the very same thing we are to do with our political choices: Prayerfully make the best decision we can and then continue praying for the outcome, and as God so desires. As the OUTCOME is NOT our responsibility, nor is it within our power. I never pray for the one I vote for to win, but for God's will to be done. Throughout Scripture, God has used people as He so desired, and He so often has picked people with ton of flaws to do His will - spiritually, politically, militarily, etc, etc. Those that don't vote because they don't want to impact an outcome between their given choices are ironically doing so anyway. And precisely, because, at least indirectly, their non vote will help someone into office.

Are you certain God approves of those who are running? Those who are ultimately elected? I make the decision to refrain from voting, and then I pray. I will not vote for a man I believe is against God and pray that God will make everything alright. For the same reason I will not choose between two vials of poison and swallow the mildest one, and then pray for God to heal me.

Philip wrote:And this may seem contradictory to my point about our responsibility in voting, but perhaps the bigger fallacy is for someone to believe that their individual vote - or even the collective vote - is more important than the fact that is God that is actually guiding to entire process - as if we are to believe that somehow the ultimate outcome and ramifications aren't truly in God's hands. No, we're called to do OUR part (pray/decide/vote), but lets leave the outcomes and ramifications up to God. And as it is GOD Who ultimately chooses winners and losers, sometimes those He installs in office might include what we would call unthinkable choices (think Hitler, Stalin, etc), and yet God has eternal purposes of which we cannot fathom. But again, ONLY God is responsible for the ultimate outcomes, but He does give us a voice and often rewards and punishes societies based upon the collective hearts and morals behind our choices. Yet, often, He is also far more merciful than we should expect - even when our choices have been extremely unwise.

At what point are we bound by scripture to vote? I know Stalin and Hitler were voted into power. I don't believe this is the result of God's guidance, but of evil taking advantage of a flawed system. It has done so many times throughout history. It will continue on to those elected through the system, and corrupt them as well, no matter how Christian they say they are. Power corrupts, which is why I seldom trust men with it.

Philip wrote:We vote, but it is GOD Who chooses leaders:

From John 19: " So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”

Daniel 2:21: "He changes times and seasons; He removes kings and sets up kings"

Romans 13:1: "... there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."

Deuteronomy 1:13-15: "Choose wise and discerning and experienced men from your tribes, and I will appoint them as your heads.’ “You answered me and said, ‘The thing which you have said to do is good.’ “So I took the heads of your tribes, wise and experienced men, and appointed them heads over you, leaders of thousands and of hundreds, of fifties and of tens, and officers for your tribes."

Other Bible passages related to voting:

Deuteronomy 16:18-20: "Appoint judges and officials for each of your tribes in every town the Lord your God is giving you, and they shall judge the people fairly. Do not pervert justice or show partiality. Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous. Follow justice and justice alone, so that you may live and possess the land the Lord your God is giving you."

Exodus 18:21-22: “Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens. “Let them judge the people at all times; and let it be that every major dispute they will bring to you, but every minor dispute they themselves will judge.

I don't understand how any of these passages are relevant when the government in question is involved in things that are contrary to the will of God. What about Christians in countries that don't allow Christianity? Should they give up Christianity because their government says so? Absolutely not. I also refuse to believe God appointed the leaders of the governments that outlaw Christianity. I will not vote for a system that consistently goes against the Ten Commandments. That is how I want to bring about change, because voting is certainly not changing much. Acts 5:29 calls for us to "obey God rather than men." Am I resisting the will of God if I don't vote for someone that does not follow the plain sense of scripture? How far can an elected official go in disobedience to God before not voting is no longer considered obedient?

Even then, if I REALLY am supposed to bend to the will of authority, the government never commanded me to vote. They never commanded me to join the military. They never commanded me to pick between two people who I mistrust. They commanded me to agree with them. I trust no authority but the authority from above.

Stygian, clearly you don't accept Scripture as truth! Because if you did, you would realize that NO leader, elected or not, benevolent or ruthless, by his subjects or inner group of peers, or by ruthless, bloodthirsty brutality - not one of them was not put in office without God allowing/ordaining it. That is what Scripture teaches. Again, does God need perfect people to accomplish His will? How many times did God use one of Israel's enemies to punish and protect it from another enemy? And how did God sometimes use Israel's enemies to punish or chastise THEM?

No one was more ruthless than the Romans. And so what does Jesus say to Pilate? "“You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been GIVEN you from above""

Rick wrote: "He put forward a state health care bill, that required people to have health insurance, or pay fines. He said he wasn't going to raise taxes, so instead, he raised fees. I'm more than frustrated with the candidates we are forced to choose from. So, I will not be voting again."

So Rick, you're upset about POTENTIAL flip flops on fees and taxes - which is understandable. But it is not your responsibility what a candidate does AFTER the vote. We can only go on track records and what people say. And people DO change and grow in their positions on issues - so the past is not always a given as to the stated CURRENT desires/views of a candidate. People do honestly and sincerely change. And that's not to say that we don't look a one's character and history.

Again, let's take the Supreme Court and abortion. We well know that the majority of the court makeup can be the difference in millions aborted or not. That is a KNOWN fact. If you have one candidate who now says that he would only nominate candidates against it and the other that says his nominees would all support it - as a constitutional right, then you STILL don't think that one issue is important enough to go vote? And, remember, the next president could well nominate 2 - 3 new Supreme Court replacements. Think of the philosophies of all the federal judges the next president will nominate. All of these are hugely important, and you've been given but one small voice in that process, but potentially/collectively, a determining voice in that process. IMO, this one issue should be enough for one to vote - as it may well be the collective difference between giving people the legal right to continue killing millions - or NOT.

Point is, we don't vote for GUARANTEED outcomes, but for POTENTIAL ones, albeit only ones with the best probabilities that a mortal man can discern. But it is God who directs history and outcomes, but He does allow us free will and consequences based upon our actions. And I would also say of our INACTIONS. And make no mistake about it, an inaction IS an action, just as a non decision IS a decision. They both have consequences.

If we all had the same views about not voting as some here do, we'd probably never have gotten married. We each know of certain things in our on past and our spouse's past, and thus know neither of us were previously perfect. We know that vows taken in marriage might be broken by our future spouses - or even, God forbid, by ourselves. Nonetheless we make the best decision we can and trust God for the outcome. There just are NO certainties, but a realistic man just doesn't make a decision because of uncertainties about outcomes. If we did that on everything else, we'd never move off of the spot!