Evidence for God from Science

Quick question to those that believe the Torah is still in effect.
I assume that you do Not believe that ALL of it is, so how do you decide what is or isn't?

PaulSacramento wrote: AT the same time, we also have to accept that the Jews rejected Him and that the Gentiles embraced Him.

Paul, I think we have to remember however that the Jews have NOT stumbled beyond recovery (in G-d's eyes)... But have received only a partial hardening.

Romans 11:1-3
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me.

Romans 11:25-26
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[a] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

I believe that from this passage that Christians too have also become partly blind to their Jewish roots.

PaulSacramento wrote:Quick question to those that believe the Torah is still in effect.
I assume that you do Not believe that ALL of it is, so how do you decide what is or isn't?

Yes, it's still in effect.. But we do our best only to do that which we can really apply.. As an example, part of Torah is for priests, some teachings are specially for women, some for men, some who have leprosy, some temple services... Etc. True, we can't do them all, but we do what we can if we truly love Him.

PaulSacramento wrote:Quick question to those that believe the Torah is still in effect.
I assume that you do Not believe that ALL of it is, so how do you decide what is or isn't?

Good question, as I think many assume that because we don't perform all of the commandments (like sacrifice, execution, etc.), that those who are Torah pursuant aren't as committed as they claim to be.

As Gman specified, not all commandments were meant for all people. The commandments pertaining specifically to the kohanim (the priests) are no longer in effect simply because we have no kohanim. In fact, the kahanut (priesthood) has been changed due to the Messiah's Work, as it says at Hebrews 7:11-12, "Now if perfection was through the Levitical preisthood, (for on the basis of it the people received the Torah), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of Torah also." This change is obvious, as Biblical Judaism is ineffective without the priesthood and the sacrifices (although modern non-Messianic Judaism minimizes these concepts). Yet Christianity and Messianic Judaism resolve the issue by asserting that Jesus is our everlasting Priest and our everlasting Sacrifice.

Likewise, sacrifice is impossible now, as it says at Leviticus 1:1-2, "When any man of you brings an offering to Hashem....he shall offer it at the doorway of the Tent of Meeting, that he may be accepted by Hashem." It says again at Deuteronomy 12:5-6, "But you shall seek Hashem at the Place which Hashem your G-d will choose from all your tribes, to establish His Name there for His dwelling, and there you shall come. There you shall bring your burnt offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the offerings that you give, your the offerings you have vowed, your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herd and of your flock."

Execution is also no longer permitted to be followed, because it can't be performed unless the THEOCRACY of Isra'el exists, and the court (the Sanhedrin) rules in favor of it, and the Sanhedrin doesn't exist right now. Between that and the fact that only members of theocratic nation of Isra'el are subject to the punishment of execution, and not simply anyone who happens to be in the area (note that Deuteronomy 13:6, which speaks about the punishment for a citizen of Isra'el who tries to entice his countrymen to follow other gods, says family members and friends, not strangers or aliens, and Deuteronomy 13:7 mentions that other peoples worship other gods nearby without repurcussion), it would in fact be AGAINST Torah (Exodus 20:13, which forbids unlawful and/or arbitrary taking of life; Deuteronomy 19:15, which requires both multiple witnesses and evidence presented to and investigated by a court) to put anyone to death for any reason at this time.

Also, according to the traditional numeration, 26 of the 613 commandments are only applicable in the Land of Isra'el. These include all statutes connected to the Temple, such as the bringing of the first fruits to Jerusalem, the three pilgrimages made for Passover, Sukkot (Feast of Booths), and Shavu'ot (Feast of Weeks), as well as the test of the woman suspected of adultery (Numbers 5:11-31). Also, all laws concerning the civil government or military, such as those relating to the king, the census, and military customs, are no longer able to be performed. This also includes the laws concerning agriculture and the fruit of the Land, like the tithes to the Levites and the Sabbatical year. Health, purity, and quarantine laws are also no longer in effect outside of the Land. Also, laws concerning the functions of the theocratic State of Isra'el and the courts aren't able to be performed, such as the Jubilee, the blowing of the shofar (ram's horn; trumpet) on Yom Kippur to announce the Jubilee, laws about Jewish servants, laws about the cities of refuge, and corporal punishments and fines.

Besides those which are not able to be applied either for Scriptural reasons (such as sacrifice without the Temple) or for practical/geographical ones, we do believe the Torah is in full effect, so that the rest of the laws do apply

Nicely put cheezerrox. The setup of the Sanhedrin is a crucial element to the Torah for sure.. Kind of like the Torah cops. By the way I don't know if anyone else does this but at our messianic synagogue we wear Tzitzit. This is just another example of obeying Torah that we can actually do. In my opinion, if Yeshua wore Tzitzit, then I'm going to wear Tzitzit too..

Very interesting.
DO Messianic Jews believe Jesus to be God?

PaulSacramento wrote:Very interesting.
DO Messianic Jews believe Jesus to be God?

The ones I know and been involved with certianly do - it makes them happpy and they get so happy they dance!!!

Can't explain why this is - I know one Jewish man after discovering Jesus - just happily saying out loud - smiling tears in His eyes - Jesus is Messiah!!! Jesus is Messiah!!! Jesus is Messiah!!!!

He understood what that meant from Isaiah chapters 7 and 11
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B. W. wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Very interesting.
DO Messianic Jews believe Jesus to be God?

The ones I know and been involved with certianly do - it makes them happpy and they get so happy they dance!!!

Can't explain why this is - I know one Jewish man after discovering Jesus - just happily saying out loud - smiling tears in His eyes - Jesus is Messiah!!! Jesus is Messiah!!! Jesus is Messiah!!!!

He understood what that meant from Isaiah chapters 7 and 11
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Proclaiming Jesus the messiah doesn't = Jesus being God the Son...

@paul
to answer your question yes most messianics believe Yeshua is God in the flesh and like B.W. stated it is a wonderful thing to see a jewish person come to the realization who Yeshua is and what he has done. just know that there are different variations in the messianic movement much like how we have various denominations within the church. some messianics believe that Yeshua is messiah but don't accept him as God in the flesh. So like with any Church you attend you want to know what it is they believe it's the same with messianic congregations you want to know what it is they believe or their statement of faith.

PaulSacramento wrote:Very interesting.
DO Messianic Jews believe Jesus to be God?

Yes, the view of orthodox Messianic Judaism is that Jesus is G-d Incarnate in accordance with Orthodox Christian doctrine. There are certain fringe groups, as Zionist pointed out, as Messianism is similar to Christianity as a whole in that it has many different doctrines and viewpoints within itself. But, the large majority of Messianics accept the Trinity.

B. W. wrote:The ones I know and been involved with certianly do - it makes them happpy and they get so happy they dance!!!

Can't explain why this is - I know one Jewish man after discovering Jesus - just happily saying out loud - smiling tears in His eyes - Jesus is Messiah!!! Jesus is Messiah!!! Jesus is Messiah!!!!

He understood what that meant from Isaiah chapters 7 and 11
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Wow, that's a beautiful experience! I heard of one Jew who came to accept Christ and said, "He was here all along!" Many Jews don't suffer from hardness of heart, they simply have either been indoctrinated to be hostile to the Gospel or have been presented with a faulty representation of it. Thanks for sharing that, brother!

Fascinating.
Thank you so much guys

PaulSacramento wrote:Fascinating.
Thank you so much guys

No problem at all, my friend! I'm glad we could answer some questions for you.

PaulSacramento wrote:Very interesting.
DO Messianic Jews believe Jesus to be God?

Yes, we do... And so does my congregation. G-d in the flesh. I wouldn't have it any other way..