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Re: 600+ commandments?
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:43 am
by RickD
1over137 wrote:Paul: Do we or do we not have to obey all those laws and why?
Hana, did you read all those laws? Is it even possible to follow laws pertaining to a temple that doesn't exist anymore? Do you really believe having a relationship with God, through Christ, is about carrying a burden of trying to follow those laws?
Hana, those laws were given to Israel, as a nation set apart by God. Unless Slovakia has all the same laws, then no, they're not for you to obey.
Re: 600+ commandments?
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:56 am
by Byblos
RickD wrote:1over137 wrote:Paul: Do we or do we not have to obey all those laws and why?
Hana, did you read all those laws? Is it even possible to follow laws pertaining to a temple that doesn't exist anymore? Do you really believe having a relationship with God, through Christ, is about carrying a burden of trying to follow those laws?
Hana, those laws were given to Israel, as a nation set apart by God. Unless Slovakia has all the same laws, then no, they're not for you to obey.
What was it that Jesus said about how the laws can be summarized? Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. You do that you obey all the laws.
Re: 600+ commandments?
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:00 am
by 1over137
RickD wrote:1over137 wrote:Paul: Do we or do we not have to obey all those laws and why?
Hana, did you read all those laws? Is it even possible to follow laws pertaining to a temple that doesn't exist anymore? Do you really believe having a relationship with God, through Christ, is about carrying a burden of trying to follow those laws?
Hana, those laws were given to Israel, as a nation set apart by God. Unless Slovakia has all the same laws, then no, they're not for you to obey.
Was just asking to be sure.
Re: 600+ commandments?
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:11 am
by PaulSacramento
1over137 wrote:RickD wrote:1over137 wrote:Paul: Do we or do we not have to obey all those laws and why?
Hana, did you read all those laws? Is it even possible to follow laws pertaining to a temple that doesn't exist anymore? Do you really believe having a relationship with God, through Christ, is about carrying a burden of trying to follow those laws?
Hana, those laws were given to Israel, as a nation set apart by God. Unless Slovakia has all the same laws, then no, they're not for you to obey.
Was just asking to be sure.
Well, as you know, some will argue that we are still under SOME of those laws so it really is up to the individual to decide.
Re: 600+ commandments?
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:28 am
by RickD
Hana, see Galatians 5:13-18
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Hana, the book of Galatians, was written as a defense for the truth that Christians are justified by faith in Jesus Christ- by nothing less and nothing more-and that we as Christians, are sanctified by the obedience that comes from faith in God's work for us, in us, by the grace and power of Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
Re: 600+ commandments?
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:47 am
by Jac3510
PaulSacramento wrote:1over137 wrote:RickD wrote:1over137 wrote:Paul: Do we or do we not have to obey all those laws and why?
Hana, did you read all those laws? Is it even possible to follow laws pertaining to a temple that doesn't exist anymore? Do you really believe having a relationship with God, through Christ, is about carrying a burden of trying to follow those laws?
Hana, those laws were given to Israel, as a nation set apart by God. Unless Slovakia has all the same laws, then no, they're not for you to obey.
Was just asking to be sure.
Well, as you know, some will argue that we are still under SOME of those laws so it really is up to the individual to decide.
Some unfortunately do. I recently linked to
this article in some other thread about the Law. I think it does a good job of answering this question. It's about how the Law applies to Christians.
I may have linked to
this one before, too, but I'd suggest reading it here. It's actually about the proper translation of Gal 3:24, which is often rendered something like "the Law is our tutor that leads us to Christ." In discussing a different view (he suggests, properly I think, "the Law was our child-leader until Christ came." There's no direct English equivalent to the Greek word behind "tutor"--"nanny" would work, too, though. Anyway, in the course of defending and explaining the translation, he thoroughly reviews Paul's argument concerning the Law in the book of Galatians. In doing so, he makes (independently) some of the arguments Hays does in the first article I linked to.
Re: 600+ commandments?
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:48 am
by PaulSacramento
RickD wrote:Hana, see Galatians 5:13-18
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Hana, the book of Galatians, was written as a defense for the truth that Christians are justified by faith in Jesus Christ- by nothing less and nothing more-and that we as Christians, are sanctified by the obedience that comes from faith in God's work for us, in us, by the grace and power of Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
And it is that grace that motivates us to be better, to do better, not because we are trying to earn anything, but out of sheer love for God.
Re: 600+ commandments?
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:58 am
by Jac3510
RickD wrote:Hana, the book of Galatians, was written as a defense for the truth that Christians are justified by faith in Jesus Christ- by nothing less and nothing more-and that we as Christians, are sanctified by the obedience that comes from faith in God's work for us, in us, by the grace and power of Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
I would be very careful about this phraseology. I know it's "common knowledge" that Paul is writing Galatians to defend justification by faith alone. But I don't think that is correct. He is writing to defend the doctrine of
sanctification by faith alone. The key passage for the entire book is Gal 3:1-6
- You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Look carefully at Paul's question, underlined above. The word "to finish" is
telos, which refers to maturity or perfection. Paul is arguing that
because they were saved by grace through faith and not by works, that they should continue is that grace by faith for their perfection. The error of the Judaizers was not so much working for their salvation, but the argument that the Gentile Christians needed to keep the Law for their sanctification. Paul calls
that a false gospel (Gal 1:8-9).
It's the one who lives in faith who is spiritual; the one who lives by the law is carnal (fleshly). The one who lives in faith can expect the Spirit to bear fruit in him--love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, etc. The one who attempts to live the Christian life by the Law produces envy, bitterness, strife, jealousy, malice, etc.
The bottom line, it isn't obedience that sanctifies. It is faith that sanctifies. Faith doesn't produce obedience. The Spirit produces a mature, fruit bearing believer, and He does so through the power of the Gospel, which is attained by faith. Christianity really is about faith alone, through and through!
Re: 600+ commandments?
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:19 am
by RickD
Jac wrote:
The bottom line, it isn't obedience that sanctifies. It is faith that sanctifies. Faith doesn't produce obedience. The Spirit produces a mature, fruit bearing believer, and He does so through the power of the Gospel, which is attained by faith. Christianity really is about faith alone, through and through!
I couldn't agree more, Jac. That's what was meant by what I posted here:
Hana, the book of Galatians, was written as a defense for the truth that Christians are justified by faith in Jesus Christ- by nothing less and nothing more-and that we as Christians, are sanctified by the obedience that comes from faith in God's work for us, in us, by the grace and power of Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
The faith is in God's work. God's work through Christ, for justification. And faith in God's work through The Holy Spirit, for sanctification. The obedience comes when a believer lives by the spirit, and the Holy Spirit transforms the believer. NOT by the believer striving in the flesh to be a better person, obey the law, etc.
Re: 600+ commandments?
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:34 am
by PaulSacramento
I think that is a crucial point that some "works based salvation" denominations may miss, it is NOT faith in ourselves or Faith in OUR BELIEF but Faith in God and Christ.
It is faith not in what we do but what God did through Christ and what Christ did through His love for Us.
We are justified because we put our Faith in Christ and God and what they have done, continue to do and will do for us.
Of course that understanding of this amazing gift motivates us to share this love with others, but not to earn anything but simply to share our love.
Re: 600+ commandments?
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:00 am
by 1over137
Another commandment is from Deut 13:12-16:
"If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction,3 all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again."
Did this ever happen? If yes, were all inhabitants drawn away?
Re: 600+ commandments?
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:24 am
by PaulSacramento
1over137 wrote:Another commandment is from Deut 13:12-16:
"If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction,3 all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again."
Did this ever happen? If yes, were all inhabitants drawn away?
There are a lot of issues with many of the commandments to "put people" to the sword.
First of we need to realize that the language used to desribe the event, is typical of the language of the time, much like we would say " that hurricane wiped out the entire town" and of course there were still some survivors and building left intact.
Colourful language has always been used to make a point about the seriosuness of things.
Also, to add to that, there were many an issue with the worship of false Gods and the horrific events that could and did come from that and a very just reason for God to order the destruction of the people contaminated by those false Gods.
Re: 600+ commandments?
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:46 pm
by Furstentum Liechtenstein
Byblos wrote:Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Ex 21:28b indicates that an animal can be held responsible for its actions. (But I prefer neo-x's answer!)
FL
It's not because the animal is responsible for its actions, it's to protect other human beings 1) from being attacked again, and 2) from eating the flesh of an animal who took away one of their own (as if in celebration of) and also who might be diseased (they didn't have a name for it but I'm reasonably sure they had mad cow back then too).
You may be right; at the very least, your explanation makes sense. How would you explain Balaam's donkey (Nu 22:28-30) who displays self-awareness, logic and calm & submissive behavior once God opened her mouth? Note that the text doesn't say ''God gave her a discerning spirit'' but that ''the Lord opened the donkey's mouth.'' Presumably, Balaam's donkey was already self-aware, logical and calm even before she was able to speak.
FL
Re: 600+ commandments?
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:48 pm
by neo-x
Note that the text doesn't say ''God gave her a discerning spirit'' but that ''the Lord opened the donkey's mouth.'' Presumably, Balaam's donkey was already self-aware, logical and calm even before she was able to speak.
May be God sent a spirit which spoke through Balaam's Donkey. You know something similar happened in 1 kings 22
Then Micaiah answered, “I saw all Israel scattered on the hills like sheep without a shepherd, and the Lord said, ‘These people have no master. Let each one go home in peace.’”
18 The king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, “Didn’t I tell you that he never prophesies anything good about me, but only bad?”
19 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’
“One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’
22 “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.
“‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.
“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’
23 “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”
Re: 600+ commandments?
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:48 am
by Furstentum Liechtenstein
neo-x wrote:May be God sent a spirit which spoke through Balaam's Donkey.
No...that doesn't sound right. The donkey used a personal pronoun - she spoke of herself in the first person - and she didn't use a preamble such as ''The L
ORD says...'' or some such expression that would indicate a message/messenger from beyond.
FL