Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:

Well, if I can play the "devil's advocate":
Both Man and Ape came from the earth, right?
Earth being the common ancestor/link to all life.

Is that your theory of evolution? Earth is our common ancestor? You don't think mankind was specially created? Because if mankind evolved from something else, that doesn't leave room for mankind to be different from other animals, does it? How in evolution, did mankind receive a spirit?

No, that is not MY theory of evolution, I was just demonstration that, if we go back far enough, ALL life has a "common ancestor".
My view is that science has indeed shown that evolution ( adaptive change over time) does indeed happen and that it is quite possible that Man came to be that way.
There is no reason to believe that IF that is the case, that this effects MAN being singled out by God to be His "image barer".
It MAY also come to be that MAN evolved to a point where God was able to make Him in His likeness and Man was given a Spirit.
It MAY be that Adam and Eve were the first fully human homo sapiens and also the first to receive God's spirit and as such were singled out and blessed bu God until that Fall and after being thrown out of Eden, populated the Planet with the help of others that had also gotten to their stage.
God's spirit of life was given to all from then on BUT the direct decendents of Adam and Eve, Israel, where still "singled out" by God as His chosen Ones since they were direct from Adam and Eve, the first ones.

Or something like that

For hundreds if not thousands of years, Aboringese did not breed with caucasians. So what does this mean?
Uhhh, nothing.

jlay wrote:For hundreds if not thousands of years, Aboringese did not breed with caucasians. So what does this mean?
Uhhh, nothing.

They were missing out on blondes and redheads?

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:Why, is God not capable of infusing a rational soul in an already existing animal whose first cause is God himself anyway?

Oh no. I'm not saying God isn't capable of that. God is also capable of creating the heavens and earth in six 24 hour days, but I don't think scripture says that either. God created Adam, and then placed him in the garden. I don't see how that fits into Theistic Evolution. I'm not trying to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. I'd like to know how TE explains the first human being, who is a spiritual creature. When no other spiritual creatures(besides angels) existed prior.

Physically God made man of the stuff of the earth (from creation ex nihilo to 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation galaxy formations that finally brought about what is known today as the periodic table everything is made of). Spiritually He infused a rational soul into him. While to God the 2 events are outside of time (and could be thought of as instantaneous), to us (or at least to TE) the 2 events are a few billion years apart.

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:Why, is God not capable of infusing a rational soul in an already existing animal whose first cause is God himself anyway?

Oh no. I'm not saying God isn't capable of that. God is also capable of creating the heavens and earth in six 24 hour days, but I don't think scripture says that either. God created Adam, and then placed him in the garden. I don't see how that fits into Theistic Evolution. I'm not trying to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. I'd like to know how TE explains the first human being, who is a spiritual creature. When no other spiritual creatures(besides angels) existed prior.

Physically God made man of the stuff of the earth (from creation ex nihilo to 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation galaxy formations that finally brought about what is known today as the periodic table everything is made of). Spiritually He infused a rational soul into him. While to God the 2 events are outside of time (and could be thought of as instantaneous), to us (or at least to TE) the 2 events are a few billion years apart.

Byblos, that sounds more like progressive creationism than Theistic Evolution. I would guess TE would say hominids evolved to a certain point, when God took a certain "human", and gave him a spirit. Where as PC says that each "species" was created specially by God, when God, in His timeline chose to create that "species". Ultimately culminating in God's final creation, modern humans. And, I did actually see how TE could possibly be at least partly justified in scripture. I say "partly", because it was only after a cursory reading of Genesis 1 & 2 that I saw what I saw.

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:Why, is God not capable of infusing a rational soul in an already existing animal whose first cause is God himself anyway?

Oh no. I'm not saying God isn't capable of that. God is also capable of creating the heavens and earth in six 24 hour days, but I don't think scripture says that either. God created Adam, and then placed him in the garden. I don't see how that fits into Theistic Evolution. I'm not trying to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. I'd like to know how TE explains the first human being, who is a spiritual creature. When no other spiritual creatures(besides angels) existed prior.

Physically God made man of the stuff of the earth (from creation ex nihilo to 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation galaxy formations that finally brought about what is known today as the periodic table everything is made of). Spiritually He infused a rational soul into him. While to God the 2 events are outside of time (and could be thought of as instantaneous), to us (or at least to TE) the 2 events are a few billion years apart.

Byblos, that sounds more like progressive creationism than Theistic Evolution. I would guess TE would say hominids evolved to a certain point, when God took a certain "human", and gave him a spirit. Where as PC says that each "species" was created specially by God, when God, in His timeline chose to create that "species". Ultimately culminating in God's final creation, modern humans. And, I did actually see how TE could possibly be at least partly justified in scripture. I say "partly", because it was only after a cursory reading of Genesis 1 & 2 that I saw what I saw.

It's not PC at all. PC entails humans were specially created already infused with a rational soul. TE says abiogenesis (and creation in general) is God's work, then things evolved as they did until God infused a rational soul into 2 creatures we now call Adam and Eve, thereby starting the human lineage.

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:Why, is God not capable of infusing a rational soul in an already existing animal whose first cause is God himself anyway?

Oh no. I'm not saying God isn't capable of that. God is also capable of creating the heavens and earth in six 24 hour days, but I don't think scripture says that either. God created Adam, and then placed him in the garden. I don't see how that fits into Theistic Evolution. I'm not trying to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. I'd like to know how TE explains the first human being, who is a spiritual creature. When no other spiritual creatures(besides angels) existed prior.

Physically God made man of the stuff of the earth (from creation ex nihilo to 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation galaxy formations that finally brought about what is known today as the periodic table everything is made of). Spiritually He infused a rational soul into him. While to God the 2 events are outside of time (and could be thought of as instantaneous), to us (or at least to TE) the 2 events are a few billion years apart.

Byblos, that sounds more like progressive creationism than Theistic Evolution. I would guess TE would say hominids evolved to a certain point, when God took a certain "human", and gave him a spirit. Where as PC says that each "species" was created specially by God, when God, in His timeline chose to create that "species". Ultimately culminating in God's final creation, modern humans. And, I did actually see how TE could possibly be at least partly justified in scripture. I say "partly", because it was only after a cursory reading of Genesis 1 & 2 that I saw what I saw.

It's not PC at all. PC entails humans were specially created already infused with a rational soul. TE says abiogenesis (and creation in general) is God's work, then things evolved as they did until God infused a rational soul into 2 creatures we now call Adam and Eve, thereby starting the human lineage.

So, in Theistic Evolution, Adam and Eve are considered the first human beings, because God took 1 existing hominid(Adam), gave him a spirit(or rational soul), then formed Eve from him? So, according to TE, the only difference between Adam and the other existing hominids that had evolved to the point Adam did, was that God gave him a spirit, or rational soul, as you call it? According to TE, Adam wasnt specially created? He was an existing hominid that God gave a spirit to, then placed him in the garden?

RickD wrote:So, in Theistic Evolution, Adam and Eve are considered the first human beings, because God took 1 existing hominid(Adam), gave him a spirit(or rational soul), then formed Eve from him? So, according to TE, the only difference between Adam and the other existing hominids that had evolved to the point Adam did, was that God gave him a spirit, or rational soul, as you call it? According to TE, Adam wasnt specially created? He was an existing hominid that God gave a spirit to, then placed him in the garden?

TE believers would contend that the gift of rationality is precisely a special creation without which we could not know anything. Besides, creation is ultimately attributed to God anyway.

RickD wrote: So, in Theistic Evolution, Adam and Eve are considered the first human beings, because God took 1 existing hominid(Adam), gave him a spirit(or rational soul), then formed Eve from him? So, according to TE, the only difference between Adam and the other existing hominids that had evolved to the point Adam did, was that God gave him a spirit, or rational soul, as you call it? According to TE, Adam wasnt specially created? He was an existing hominid that God gave a spirit to, then placed him in the garden?

There are a few views but in a nutshell, TE states that GOD is the driving force in evolution.
Some view him as a direct force while other view God as instilling in all living organisms that ability to adapt to the stress imposed by their environment (evolution).
I don't know of any that view the literal reading of HOW Eve was created ( from a rib)as being a literal and concrete passage the states God removed ONE of Adams' ribs to make Eve.

My question really is if as TEs you believe Adam was a preexisting hominid that God chose to give a spirit to. OR, if modern humans evolved BUT Adam was a special creation. Do you guys understand what I'm asking?

Byblos wrote:
TE believers would contend that the gift of rationality is precisely a special creation without which we could not know anything. Besides, creation is ultimately attributed to God anyway.

So, is it safe for me to understand that Adam's body wasn't specially created, just his spiritual nature?

I understand that TE says that God created, and set evolution in motion. Unlike Naturalistic evolution. I'm trying to understand how TE fits into Genesis. Maybe it has too broad of an answer, because TEs have different beliefs in Genesis. Some think it should be taken literally. Some take it figuratively.

RickD wrote:My question really is if as TEs you believe Adam was a preexisting hominid that God chose to give a spirit to. OR, if modern humans evolved BUT Adam was a special creation. Do you guys understand what I'm asking?

Byblos wrote:
TE believers would contend that the gift of rationality is precisely a special creation without which we could not know anything. Besides, creation is ultimately attributed to God anyway.

So, is it safe for me to understand that Adam's body wasn't specially created, just his spiritual nature?

I understand that TE says that God created, and set evolution in motion. Unlike Naturalistic evolution. I'm trying to understand how TE fits into Genesis. Maybe it has too broad of an answer, because TEs have different beliefs in Genesis. Some think it should be taken literally. Some take it figuratively.

I'm not well versed on all the intricacies of TE but what I do know is that it reconciles evolution as a theory with theism. So yes, Adam and Eve, physically, were hominids that (possibly) do share a common ancestry with all living things to later be endowed by their creator with the gift of rational soul, thereby starting the human lineage.

As for how TE fits into Genesis, I could see the timeline going something like this:

1. Universe created ex-nihilo 13.7 billion years ago
2. First generation super-galaxy formations produced primitive elements such as hydrogen and helium (this took about 3 billion years)
3. Second generation galaxies formed more complex elements such oxygen (another 3 billion)
4. Third generation galaxies (including our Milky Way) formed the elements we know today in the periodic table such as carbon and compound elements such as H2O. This was about 4 billion years ago.
5. Abiogenesis then occurred as a miraculous act of God
6. Evolution took hold and flourished
7. Some time in the last million years or so when homonids' brains matured enough God endowed a couple of them with the special gift of rational soul.
8. And here we are chatting about it ...

7. Some time in the last million years or so when homonids' brains matured enough God endowed a couple of them with the special gift of rational soul.

Byblos, so we can understand each other, I'm saying man is a "triune" being, so to speak. He is body, soul(mind, will, and emotions), and spirit. The spirit is what is unique to man. Man being a spiritual creature allows man to be able to understand God. I also believe man's spirit is everlasting.

I believe scripture shows some animals, not just man, have a soul.

But, back to #7 above. If according to TE, Adam and Eve were given a rational soul(or spiritual nature) which made them human, then the other hominids living at the same time, wouldn't have been human, correct?

RickD wrote:

7. Some time in the last million years or so when homonids' brains matured enough God endowed a couple of them with the special gift of rational soul.

Byblos, so we can understand each other, I'm saying man is a "triune" being, so to speak. He is body, soul(mind, will, and emotions), and spirit. The spirit is what is unique to man. Man being a spiritual creature allows man to be able to understand God. I also believe man's spirit is everlasting.

I believe scripture shows some animals, not just man, have a soul.

I agree with all of this.

RickD wrote:But, back to #7 above. If according to TE, Adam and Eve were given a rational soul(or spiritual nature) which made them human, then the other hominids living at the same time, wouldn't have been human, correct?

Correct.

Don't forget that Adam & Eve were the only hominid without a fur covering requiring them to wear clothing. How did that get selected for from an evolutionary perspective and second why would God choose a creature that somehow magically managed to exist without fur and imbue them with the intellect to know how to cover themselves so they could persist. Strangely both male and female would have to both be furless mutations within the same time frame. So what are the odds that a male and female both with the same genetic defect occured within the same time frame and God hooked them up before they died from exposure.

Bible specifically says that God "created" humans. But as we know, a lot of things in the Bible that seem literal shouldn't be taken literally. Does that mean TE is a plausible explanation? It could be and it could not. The fact is we don't know. Even today, our understanding of evolution is so poor, that claiming anything for a fact (especially in regards to macroevolution) is pretty much presumptuous.

What I'd love to see, though, is Christians letting evolutionists do their thing and evolutionists not forcing their naturalistic philosophies onto others, forming a society in which having a different opinion about the origin of life automatically classifies one as a superstitious idiot.

Lack of understanding and respect towards each other is what our society lacks, I think.