Evidence for God from Science

Jac3510 wrote:I wouldn't say that's keeping the spirit of the Law. I'd say that's living in light of the spiritual truth upon which that particular law was based.

That's pretty much what I meant you just have a better way of expressing it than me.

Jac3510 wrote: Of course He will restore Israel. And He will reign from Israel. And the nations will come to worship in Jerusalem. Under your theology, there are no other nations, since everyone is just . . . Israel.
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No... All the other nations are apart of the commonwealth of Israel. Not Israel, the land itself...

But Jac, if G-d's views on sin don't change, then you can't get rid of Torah. There are things that don't apply, whether for practical reasons (no execution because theocratic Isra'el/Sandhedrin don't exist) or because they've specifically been completed and done away with/changed through the Messiah's work and the New Covenant (the Levitical priesthood and atonement through sacrifice, Hebrews 7-10), but what the Torah calls sin must still be sin. Let's take Leviticus 19 for example. Fearing parents, keeping Shabbat, not worshipping idols, loving your neighbor as yourself, not eating blood, not practicing divination, not shaving your beard, and not getting tattoos are all put in the same boat as commandments. It also mentions things such as sacrifice, which aren't applicable because no Temple exists (Deuteronomy 12:10-11) and because atonement is only through the Cross (although sacrifice for other purposes is not done away with).

The fact that there is no theocratic nation of Isra'el doesn't change what sin is or isn't. The Messiah inaugurated the New Covenant, but covenant does not REPLACE a previous covenant, it BUILDS on it. There've been five, the covenants with Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and Jesus, and not one of them negated or "finished" a covenant that came before it. Paul states this principle in Galatians 3. I cannot see how one can say that the Old Covenant was not abolished, but that it is now replaced. Indeed, the passage that the idea of the Torah being fulfilled in the sense of it being "finished" comes from (Matthew 5:17-19), goes on to say that until heaven and earth pass away, not one yod or stroke will pass from it, and that not even one of the least of its commandments are to be annulled. The word in Greek usually translated fulfill means literally to "fill," and is used in the sense of completing something. Besides His main purpose in coming, which was to die and rise again to save us from our sins, Jesus came to "make full" our understanding of the Torah and the Prophets, and of what they require. Verses 18-20 show three ways Torah remains relevant and necessary. Then throughout the rest of the chapter, Jesus "fills" the meaning of six of the commandments. Matthew 5:17 states the whole purpose of the Sermon on the Mount, which was to complete, to make more full the understanding of the disciples concerning Torah.

Also, Jeremiah 31 doesn't indicate in any way that the New Covenant will do away with the requirements of the Mosaic covenant. In fact, it implies exactly what I said above, by saying that G-d will put His Torah on the heart. In Biblical terms, this indicates that people will then be faithful (notice that He defines the Old Covenant as "that which they broke," and the New Covenant as "My Torah will be within them" and "all will know Me" (know in the Biblical, covenantal sense)), and it also indicates that people's understanding of it and its requirements will become more complete.

And as far as breaking the Law being sin, maybe you're correct, and my position as I've expressed it is contradictory. I suppose this is because of the way I think of it, which is that even if breaking Torah is sin, it is not something that affects your salvation or righteousness before G-d. It's the same as any other sin. But, I was/am being inconsistent, and I suppose I will have to concede that I see breaking the Law as sin, still today. I myself believe that the NT is clear that the believers under the New Covenant are still obligated to obey G-d's commandments, and that the Old Covenant has not been done away with and has not vanished.

I understand the seriousness of this issue, and I appreciate you making that clear. I also want to say that I have a great deal of respect for you, Jac, as well as for Rick and the others on this board, and I in no way believe any of you disagree on arbitrary ground or are trying to get out of following some rules. But, I cannot go against what I have been convicted of as true, and while I do and will continue to study and pray that G-d leads me into the truth and show me if I'm in error, I have to be honest and admit that I believe that there's a misunderstanding of Scripture on your end (not just yours, but of the Church's collectively), which I sincerely say that with the utmost humility. I don't see this as a cultural issue. It's about what Scripture expects of us. And I hope and pray I'm not wrong, because I know I easily could, but I've done my study on this and have arrived at this conclusion.

The Galatians heresy was trying to become perfect through the Law. It was about trying to find something in the Law instead of finding it in the Messiah. What I'm advocating is neither. What I'm advocating is that the Law, the Torah, as Scripture presents it, as Jesus presents it, is the standard that we are supposed to live by.

Paul says at Galatians 5:18 not that those who are led by the Spirit are now outside of the framework of the Torah, but that you're not in subjection to legalism. You note that he doesn't say that those led by the Spirit are not under a legalistic interpretation of the Law. But, we need to make note of the fact that Paul had NO WAY of saying that explicitly as we do today. There was no way to talk about legalism as opposed to Law in general specificaly in the language he was writing in. And so he came up with two phrases which he uses throughout his letters when he refers to legalism, upo nomon (under law) and erga nomou (works of the law). And so that you see that I'm not the only one saying this, look at this quote from C.E.B. Cranfield's commentary on Romans.

"...it will be well to bear in mind the fact...that the Greek language of Paul's day possessed no word-group corresponding to our 'legalism,' 'legalist,' and 'legalistic.' This means that he lacked a convenient terminology for expressing a vital distinction, and so was surely seriously hampered in the work of clarifying the Christian position with regard to the law. In view of this, we should always, we think, be ready to reckon with the possibility that Pauline statements which at first sight seem to disparage the law, were really directed not against the law itself but against that misunderstanding and misuse of it for which we no have a convenient terminology. In this very difficult terrain Paul was pioneering." (The International Critical Commentary, Romans, 1979, pg. 853)

See also Ernest De Witt Burton's comments in his commentary on Galatians (speaking specificaly here about Galatians 2:16,

"Nomou is here evidently used...in its legalistic sense, denoting divine law viewed as a purely legalistic system made up of statutes, on the basis of obedience or disobedience to which men are approved or condemned as a matter of debt without grace. This is divine law as the legalist defined it. In the apostle's thought it stands for a reality only in that it constitutes a single element of the divine law detached from all other elements and aspects of divine revelation; by such detachment it misrepresents the will of God and his real attitude towards men. By erga nomou Paul means deeds of obedience to formal statutes done in this legalistic spirit, with the expectation of thereby meriting and securing divine approval and award, such obedience, in other words, as the legalists rendered to the law of the Old Testament as expanded and interpreted by them. Though nomos in this sense had no existence as representing the basis of justification in the divine government, yet erga nomou had a very real existence in the thought and practice of men who conceived of the divine law after the fashion... The translation of this phrase here and constantly...by 'the works of the law'...is a serious defect of [the versions that have it]." (The International Critical Commentary, Galatians, 1921, pg. 120

Paul's phrase "upo nomon" is in the same boat. He uses it five times in Galatians (3:23; 4:4, 5, 21; 5:18), and it never means just "living by the Law/Torah," but always means "living by the system of legalism," with the connotation of oppression through being enslaved to this mindset/social system.

Indeed, what G-d has cleansed I have no right to consider unholy. But that message had to do with people, not with animals for eating or anything involving obedience to Torah.

Titus wasn't compelled to be circumcised because circumcision was something that G-d specifically has said isn't necessary for Gentiles through the giving of the Holy Spirit to Cornelius and other Gentiles, while uncircumcised (Acts 10:44-48). In the Torah, a stranger had to be circumcised to keep Passover, or to be expected to be obedient to the Law. But, when he was, he was required the same things as any native-born Isra'eli (Exodus 12:49). Romans 11:11-24 says, however, that Gentiles are no longer strangers, but have been grafted into the olive tree of Isra'el. They have the same status as any Jew as soon as they put their trust in Jesus, and by doing so, become circumcised in their hearts, which Paul calls the "true circumcision" (Philippians 3:3).

In fact, it's interesting to see that according to the Torah, the alien or stranger who is circumcised is allowed to keep Passover, but no other stranger is. There's only one exception, and that's the slave who was purchased with money (Exodus 12:44). Both Jews and Gentiles are now slaves of the Messiah, bought with His Blood, and we've all been circumcised in the heart, with the circumcision made without hands. So circumcision is not a requirement for Gentiles. They need not become Jews to be a part of G-d's people. And it's also interesting to note that this is the only commandment that G-d specifically says He does not require (at least not in the same way) anymore, apart from sacrifices for atonement.

Besides, the Judaizers wanted to circumcise Titus simply so he could be a part of the community of beleivers. Torah only REQUIRES it if the Gentile wants to be a part of the celebration of Passover. This was an addition to the Law. It had nothing to do with Torah itself, as G-d gave it. So the bondage they attempted to bring Paul, Titus, and the others into was not bondage to the Law as in G-d's Law, but the Judaizer's law.

I will consider my position seriously and deeply, and I hope you and others believe me when I say I sincerely will and am willing to admit it and change my position if I come to see I am wrong. I've said before, it could easily be so, as many people, such as you, Jac, who are much wiser than me disagree with me strongly. But, I feel as if whoever I talk to on these boards about this subject, are not willing to consider for themselves whether or not their position may be the correct one or not. I'm not trying to insult anyone, I'm simply saying that many people may consider this issue as something they couldn't possibly be wrong on. And for many this is because they're entirely convinced that Scripture is clear on it, or have studied it for themselves. Very well then. But, I believe there are many issues that haven't been addressed with the position that Torah has been done away with, and I can't make sense of Scripture in light of that interpretation. So, I humbly ask others to be open to considering this issue from both sides, and looking at what the Bible says as objectively as possible. This isn't directed at you (or anyone) in particular, Jac, I just have gotten this feeling from multiple conversations on this board and off this board.

okay so i will chime in with what i know and understand concerning this. did jesus really come to do away with torah? i will answer this but first i will say that this is not a salvation issue. as cheezerrox has pointed out there is a difference between "under law" and "works of the law" as we know the law points us to sin and points to messiah. messiah walked in all the law and Christ is our example that we follow right? then naturally by following Him we do the works of the law. Christ had nothing against the Law as he walked it's ways in fact he is the law since He is the word come flesh so why did he oppose the pharisees if they were teaching Torah? it is obvious if you understand that the people were accustomed to the Oral Law in which they relied on the interpretations and commentaries of rabbais to understand Torah (later known as the Talmud). yes, the oral law or Talmud was what Christ was against because it allowed the scholarly rabbais to manipulate scripture the way they saw fit which is how everything became so legalistic instead of the way God intended the Torah to be which is evident in the way that Christ walked it's ways. it was unlike anything the rabbais of the time were teaching and not the way they interpreted God's word to be which is why they wanted Him dead. Paul refers to being under the law a heresy (which means to follow it legalistically or by means of justification or salvation) but never says works of the law is and that is because faith without works is dead now which works do you think James spoke of? obviously, works of the law and naturally it would go for the opposite saying works without faith would also be dead right? you see faith and works are necessary for believers in Christ and that is what Christ taught. we are to walk by faith which is in messiah and we are only justified by our faith in Him so if we put our faith in Him then we naturally walk in His ways and why? because he naturally walked the ways of His own teachings being that He is God in the flesh. so naturally Christ never did away with torah he opened our eyes to it, showed us the essence of it which is based on Love and to show us that by walking in it's ways without faith in God/Him is meaningless. So is Torah done away with? No, because Torah is what Christ followed and as our example to follow naturally we become more Christ like as we grow in our faith. remember Matthew 5:17-18 not all has been fulfilled yet so therefore nothing is to be done away with and that is also confirmed by Paul when he says 2Timothy 3:16-17.

Zionist wrote:okay so i will chime in with what i know and understand concerning this. did jesus really come to do away with torah? i will answer this but first i will say that this is not a salvation issue. as cheezerrox has pointed out there is a difference between "under law" and "works of the law" as we know the law points us to sin and points to messiah. messiah walked in all the law and Christ is our example that we follow right?.

Zionist You have worded everything so much better than I could. In every respect but one, you have defined the truth eloquently.

I would like to ask if we could define what a salvation issue is? can we define what would prevent one from being saved? If we were to consider this verse...
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
And we observe it carefully Christ specifically tells her not to sin anymore right? what would be the consequence of sinning? I am currently of the opinion that sinning is a salvation issue since it seems that it is important to Christ.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
In this one Christ specifically states that if you sin that is what you are serving. But if we simply believe in him then how can we sin?

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Note her how Christ points out that the sin of murder occured at the beginning long before the decalogue was set in stone. Lies were also a sin.

Joh 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Joh 13:17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
Christ is indeed our example and honors everything his Father does by doing the same and since our instruction is to do like Christ did then in truth we will do as the father does too. We are bretheren with Christ and children of the same father and the only way we can all be one in spirit is if we all walk in the same manner. God defined his manner in the tablets of stone, Christ referenced many of these as he spoke to his following and he showed them that following the father according to the letter described in the book of the law didn't mean you were following the spirit of the law. He expanded on them and showed us there was a spirit of intent required in how we follow the fathers commands and that if we didn't obey it in its spiritual sense then we are not Gods children.

@KBCid
know that when i say it is not a salvation issue the reason why i say this is because many on this site have varrying beliefs about the law or torah but rest their faith in messiah Yeshua. ultimately Yeshua is our corner stone and foundation to our faith. so while they may not have the same view of torah as a messianic jew or others on this site they put their faith in messiah. i personally feel as do a few others here that torah is not done away with but is to be followed in the ways that Yeshua himself showed us. by love and by spirit. all believers following Yeshua follow Torah in a sense whether they acknowledge it or not. i feel that by understanding torah it makes Yeshua pop out but everyone has a revelation and a testimony in which God works through to reach us. So ultimately our salvation is a gift from God that rests upon our faith in messiah regardless of our views concerning following torah; however, that doesn't mean as a believer we use grace as an excuse to live in sin which is why i stated that followers of messiah whether they know it or not follow torah as they follow Yeshua. so yes torah is a part of every believers life which is why i have been studying it to get a better understanding and knowledge of Yeshua. hope that makes sense.

**edit** combined the first two sentences cuz i repeated myself a lil and put something in the end to wrap up what i posted

Zionist wrote:@KBCid
know that when i say it is not a salvation issue the reason why i say this is because many on this site have varrying beliefs about the law or torah. many believe that torah is done away with now to that reason i say this is not a salvation issue because while many believers today feel that torah is done away with they follow and their faith is in messiah Yeshua. Yeshua is our corner stone and foundation to our faith. so while they may not have the same view of torah as a messianic jew or others on this site they put their faith in messiah. i personally feel as do a few others here that torah is not done away with but is to be followed in the ways that Yeshua himself showed us. by love and by spirit. all believers following Yeshua follow Torah in a sense whether they acknowledge it or not. i feel that by understanding torah it makes Yeshua pop out but everyone has a revelation and a testimony in which God works through to reach us. hope that makes sense.

From my position there are sins which can be forgiven which would not make them a salvation issue unless you died in your sins and there are some sins that are unforgivable which are salvation issues when they occur. If I were to look on a woman to lust her then I am indeed breaking a commandment of God and sinning since Christ magnified the original commandment about lust to not only include the physical act but also the mental act. If we love our neighbor as the second greatest commandment states then lusting physically or mentally is breaking that commandment and is a sin. So the thing to consider here is if the two greatest laws are inclusive of the decalogue and the magnified meaning added by Christ then isn't breaking them a sin? and if we say we love God and Christ and yet still break these commandments wouldn't that be evidence in their eyes that we don't truly love them with all our heart, mind and soul?
If I say I love my wife and yet I physically cheat on her with another woman do I really love her? If I say I love my wife and yet I mentally lust after another woman do I really love her? How would God or Christ view my physical and mental actions? according to the new covenant do I remain sinless if I do these things and yet say that I love God?

@KbCid
******i edited my previous post just before you posted to clarify what i said so if something i said seemed to not make sense plz look back at the edited post. i saw you quoted my post and were probably typing before i finished the edit. sorry bout that.*****

trust me when i say i completely agree with you on how Yeshua magnified the commandments and instructed us what it truly means to follow torah and that as believers we are told to keep His commandments. but remember it's not just simply follow commandments to obtain God's favor. it was never intended to be that way. Yeshua showed us that we truly are not justified by our works but our faith and belief in God. all prophets were examples to us and by looking at them we see that even they fell short but God has grace and mercy towards them and why? because they believed and had faith. that belief and faith led them to do the works of God and be obedient to Him. So yes you are right that we need to be obedient and follow the commandments of God in the ways that Yeshua instructed us how to but we are not be legalistic in that. We are sinful beings but i would say that you should not focus so much on your faults and mishaps but learn from them because you'll continue to fall short for the rest of your life. in the eyes of God we all have gone astray but because of His love and mercy towards us we are forgiven by the blood of messiah. he is our passover and because of that we are redeemed. the torah has application to the believer's life and as paul said "all scripture is profitable..." we learn from the scriptures and see what it is that God expects which is total perfection. it is His standard so we follow the best we can because although we are sinful in the flesh Yeshua has redeemed us and has showed us the essence of torah. as we follow Him we learn from Him and as we learn we are better equipped to walk accordingly.

Zionist wrote:@KbCid
trust me when i say i completely agree with you on how Yeshua magnified the commandments and instructed us what it truly means to follow torah and that as believers we are told to keep His commandments. but remember it's not just simply follow commandments to obtain God's favor. it was never intended to be that way. Yeshua showed us that we truly are not justified by our works but our faith and belief in God. .

I already addressed this point earlier. There is not one physical action anyone can take to automatically gain eternal life. There never has been an automated salvation line. The entirety of the Jewish covenant was to help make them realise what the cost of sin is and how hard it is to be right without Gods help. All of those things which were defined by letters and words for them to follow were derived ultimately from the two greatest commandments in order that they may better understand how far reaching these commands actually spanned but they never really got that understanding which is why Christ came to clarify this concept by magnifying them and ultimately he asserted that performing the law in its spiritual sense was what is considered our "reasonable service" to God.
So if we know what makes God happy and we choose of our own free will not to do those things then we are not performing our "reasonable service" to God and he would be absolutely right in asserting;

Mat 7:21-27 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Christ clearly states that performing in a way he has defined is absolutely a dependancy on whether he will choose to grant you eternal life. This is what needs to be properly defined. Many assert that belief is all thats needed and from what we can clearly read Christ asserts that belief is not all thats needed. We need to belive in and perform as representatives of the father. If we say we believe and yet continuously do something other than what has been defined as proper then we can expect to hear the words written above from the mouth of Christ himself when we stand before the judgement seat.

KBCid wrote:
Christ asserts that belief is not all thats needed. We need to belive in and perform as representatives of the father.

Believe and perform? Sounds like a "works" based kind of salvation. Is that what you mean? If we don't believe on Jesus Christ AND "perform" certain things, we can't keep our salvation?

RickD wrote:

KBCid wrote:
Christ asserts that belief is not all thats needed. We need to belive in and perform as representatives of the father.

Believe and perform? Sounds like a "works" based kind of salvation. Is that what you mean? If we don't believe on Jesus Christ AND "perform" certain things, we can't keep our salvation?

I don't think it is "belief and perform" as much as Belief LEADS to performance.
Salvation base don works means that we are saved because we do and act a certain way REGARDLESS of our intent behind those actions and that is wrong.
When Jesus said that many would call him Lord and hw would not know them, I think he means those that are "christian in name only" those that PROFESS belief but their actions show otherwise.
And then we have those that MAY not believe and yet, live as if they do believe.

RickD wrote:Believe and perform? Sounds like a "works" based kind of salvation. Is that what you mean? If we don't believe on Jesus Christ AND "perform" certain things, we can't keep our salvation?

Mat 7:21-27 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

It is clearly stated "he that doeth", "and doeth them". In my understanding doing something is an action or the avoidance of an action. So in this case if I were to murder or covet or lie or any of a plethora of things that are not in the spirit of the two greatest commandments then I am performing a sin. These types of sins can be forgiven but if I were to continue doing them then it is quite logical that my salvation would be in jeopardy. James was quite eloquent on this point;

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

If you have respect to persons is an action, an action that is called a sin. If I perform that action I will have transgressed the law.
Commiting adultry is an action, this action is considered a sin. Murder is an action, also considered a sin. So if I profess to love God then I would do my best to perform the spiritual intent of the two greatest commandments.
What should we expected to happen if I continuously and knowingly perform actions that go against those two commandments?
If I say I love God and still look on a woman to lust her am I not performing an action that God would have a problem with? Does my faith in God override my actions?

PaulSacramento wrote:I don't think it is "belief and perform" as much as Belief LEADS to performance.

If I was a police officer and I murdered and lied and stole would that be ok in the eyes of the government? If I say I love God and I know that he has asserted two overriding commandments that specifically involve our actions then I would logically think that not acting in accord with those commandments would be bad in Gods eyes. Many sins can be forgiven but what happens if we just keep on performing against the commandments? Does my faith in God override my actions?

PaulSacramento wrote:Salvation based on works means that we are saved because we do and act a certain way REGARDLESS of our intent behind those actions and that is wrong. When Jesus said that many would call him Lord and hw would not know them, I think he means those that are "christian in name only" those that PROFESS belief but their actions show otherwise. And then we have those that MAY not believe and yet, live as if they do believe.

There is no salvation based on works alone. This was James point. Faith alone and works alone won't save anyone because faith without works is dead and works without faith is dead.
James was speaking to Christians about how they should be acting... he defined how actions play a part in the faith of Christ. In the spirit of James message we can properly understand that If we profess a faith in Christ and still lust after women in our minds than we are acting in opposition to the intent of Gods two foundational commands. How likely would it be that Christ or God would overlook such sinning if you never turned from doing it?

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Here again if I were to continue to perform the actions that define whoremongering or uncleanness or coveting or idolating then I can be absolutely sure that I will get no inheritance in Gods kingdom which is absolutely a salvation issue.

Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Eph 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)

Notice here that children are also supposed to perform actions... acceptable actions. Also note that 6:2 references a commandment from the decalogue as still pertinent to the Christians being taught the faith of Christ.

The bottom line understanding here is that no works in and of themselves will gain you anything, but having faith in Christ and performing in a holy manner according to the fathers spirit of intent for the two greatest commandments counts. Continuously performing actions that are in direct opposition to the spirit of intent in the two greatest commandments without ever turning away from them will cost you your salvation if you die in that state of sinfullness.

Continuously performing actions that are in direct opposition to the spirit of intent in the two greatest commandments without ever turning away from them will cost you your salvation if you die in that state of sinfullness.

Let's assume this is true. Then believers who are addicted to drugs for example, and don't have the power in themselves to beat the addiction, are going to lose their salvation?

Faith and obedience have to be united. They clearly go hand in hand, you can't have one without the other.. The things that you do in serving G-d have to be because you believe in him, and you accept what he says as true and faithful. The unrighteousness never attain heaven.

Hebrews 12:14-15, “Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled.”

Colossians 3:5-8 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips.

1 Timothy 1:8 We know that the Torah is good, provided one uses it in the way the Torah itself intends.

Titus 1:16, “They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.”

Its about INTENTION.
Why we do what we do, why we believe what we believe.
That is why only God and Christ can judge us because only they know our intent.
Doing the right thing with ulteriour motives is NOT the way, believing in Christ with ulterior motives is not the right way.
This is why Christ said that just the thought of adultery is adultery, He understood intention.
A believer that is sinful and weak, like Rick's example of a drug addict, needs God's grace even more and KNOWING that is what saves him.
He may fail in the act of being "good and righteous", no matter how hard he tries because of his addiction, because of his weakness, but it is his knowledge of how much he needs God';s saving grace AND his efforts to try to overcome his sin, that is what He will be judged on.