Trinitarian Theology

[1stjohn0666]

Elohim is a plural noun, never a complex noun. Elohim can mean God or Gods but never three in one God.

[Canuckster1127]

Elohim is a plural noun, never a complex noun. Elohim can mean God or Gods but never three in one God.

That response displays ignorance of and provides no rational explanation for the multiple instances in which Elohim as a plural noun is coupled with a singular verb.

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_ ... lohim.html

The name Elohim is unique to Hebraic thinking: it occurs only in Hebrew and in no other ancient Semitic language. The masculine plural ending does not mean “gods” when referring to the true God of Israel, since the name is mainly used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular (e.g., see Gen. 1:26). However, considering the Hashalush HaKadosh (Trinity), the form indeed allows for the plurality within the Godhead.

[secretfire6]

Paul, i'm not sure what the gnostics said or did to be set apart as heretics. I haven't studied them yet. They were just in a long list of original (by original i mean pre Rome) christian ways of thinking that were stomped out by the infant Roman church. Knowing what I know about the Roman church, it's hard to think they did all of this silencing of others for holy reasons.

There was NO Roman Church when the gnostic writings were being "labled" as Heretical.

Who is Ehrman?? someone to read or someone to stay away from? I know the Gnostics are much older than the Roman church. I was just saying that they continued to perpetuate the outcasting of them and others for reasons less than pure.

[Canuckster1127]

Ehrman is a leading New Testament Scholar. He's at University of North Carolina. He's a former evangelical who came out of Moody Bible Institute and studied under Bruce Metzger at Princeton. He is now a proclaimed agnostic. He gets a lot of attention because he writes books for the general public which have sold pretty well. In terms of Academic circles, he's not considered as strong a scholar as others.

[secretfire6]

The Gospel of John is pretty much universally accepted to have been the last Gospel written and there's strong evidence that the opening prologue to John (Jesus as the "Word") is in direct response to gnostic teaching that that which is physical being "evil" as opposed to that which is "spiritual" being good.

ahhh so the Gnostics believed that everything physical and flesh was corrupt and inherintantly evil? That wouldn't make sense in the light that God itself created everything physical and called it very good. also Lucifer is a spirit and fell to evil and sin.

[secretfire6]

here's a good question for you and Paul Sacramento, all just theoretical. You mentioned John's gospel and it says that Jesus's spirit existed from the beginning. since everything came from God, physical universe and all of our spirits, and it all was created in the beginning then couldn't we say..for example: In the beginning Canuckster and Paul Sacramento existed and Canuckster and Paul Sacramento were with God and Canuckster and Paul Sacramento were divine? Do you think God made all spirits at one time back then or that God is constantly making new spirits? That's a dispute that Roman church had with Origen. Origen wrote about the pre existence of the spirit and the church taught your spirit was created at the moment of conception or birth. Since the amount of living creatures the earth can sustain is finite, the amount of spirits in physical form on earth at one time must also be finite, right? So do you think God is making the spirits, sending them to live one life on earth, die and then collects them all somewhere to await judgement or do you think God made all the spirits at once and is cycling them in and out of lives on earth, watching which come back to know him and which do not until it's time for judgement?
When Jesus was baptised he was "born from above" like what he told Nicodemus was necessary for eternal life. After that point Jesus identified himself as being in unity with the father "I am in the father, the father is in me", "if you have seen me you have seen the father", "I and the father are in unity". Could we describe Jesus's baptism as his reuiniting with the father? Going back to the status he had in the beginning? If so, Can we also accomplish this? Can we reach unity with the father, attain God conciousness and, while still being united in spirit with God, be our own entity with our own will and personhood? These are questions that make me wonder if the trinity is a piece of a larger puzzle.

[PaulSacramento]

The Gospel of John is pretty much universally accepted to have been the last Gospel written and there's strong evidence that the opening prologue to John (Jesus as the "Word") is in direct response to gnostic teaching that that which is physical being "evil" as opposed to that which is "spiritual" being good.

ahhh so the Gnostics believed that everything physical and flesh was corrupt and inherintantly evil? That wouldn't make sense in the light that God itself created everything physical and called it very good. also Lucifer is a spirit and fell to evil and sin.

The gnostic tradition basically "corrupted" the orginal christian doctrines in this way:
The OT God made the world but he was an inferior god ( the gnostic demigure) and the NT God ( Jesus) saved it.
The OT God was a "material" god hence a material creation and the NT God is a spiritual God, hence superiour.

[PaulSacramento]

here's a good question for you and Paul Sacramento, all just theoretical. You mentioned John's gospel and it says that Jesus's spirit existed from the beginning. since everything came from God, physical universe and all of our spirits, and it all was created in the beginning then couldn't we say..for example: In the beginning Canuckster and Paul Sacramento existed and Canuckster and Paul Sacramento were with God and Canuckster and Paul Sacramento were divine? Do you think God made all spirits at one time back then or that God is constantly making new spirits? That's a dispute that Roman church had with Origen. Origen wrote about the pre existence of the spirit and the church taught your spirit was created at the moment of conception or birth. Since the amount of living creatures the earth can sustain is finite, the amount of spirits in physical form on earth at one time must also be finite, right? So do you think God is making the spirits, sending them to live one life on earth, die and then collects them all somewhere to await judgement or do you think God made all the spirits at once and is cycling them in and out of lives on earth, watching which come back to know him and which do not until it's time for judgement?
When Jesus was baptised he was "born from above" like what he told Nicodemus was necessary for eternal life. After that point Jesus identified himself as being in unity with the father "I am in the father, the father is in me", "if you have seen me you have seen the father", "I and the father are in unity". Could we describe Jesus's baptism as his reuiniting with the father? Going back to the status he had in the beginning? If so, Can we also accomplish this? Can we reach unity with the father, attain God conciousness and, while still being united in spirit with God, be our own entity with our own will and personhood? These are questions that make me wonder if the trinity is a piece of a larger puzzle.

There are a lot of question there, LOL !
IMO, God doesn't "make" spirits, he endows Us with a spirit ( His breath) when we are in the womb and we become a living soul upon birth and THAT is what is the unique "spirit/soul" creature that is man.
Jesus was God, but what does that mean?
God is NOT the name of God, God is the title we use for the one and unique species that is "god".
That "species" (for lack of a better word) is a one of a kind and it is a self-sustaining and self-relational species ( if it were not it would NEED something outside of itself and as such, couldn't be "god").
This "species" we call God is a "triune' species ( for lack of a better word), it exists and has always existed as a perfectly united being that WE have come to know as Father, Son and HS.
God is an incorporeal being ( but can be corporeal if He so chooses) of pure energy, conscience and love, A being of power and understanding that is far beyond any ability to comprehend fully.
The trinity is man's attempt to put into words what can't be put into words, it fails miserably BUT is still the best we've gotten so far.
There is NO "3 gods" and there is no "son is the father", what there is, is a perfect union of BEING, a perfect union of EXISTENCE of Father, Son and HS.

[1stjohn0666]

Elohim when used of God and the singular verbs to denote "one" I, he, him..etc. God is never a "they" however there are the 4 "us" texts in the bible. Gen 1:26 "let us" but in Gen 1:27 makes it clear that one creator is creating and confirmed by Jesus.

[RickD]

Elohim when used of God and the singular verbs to denote "one" I, he, him..etc. God is never a "they" however there are the 4 "us" texts in the bible. Gen 1:26 "let us" but in Gen 1:27 makes it clear that one creator is creating and confirmed by Jesus.

Still confused on the trinity I see.

[Canuckster1127]

Confused by Hebrew as well. No true language scholar looks at a construct and says it is "never" something. That's a universal denial and it immediately establishes its own conclusion without analysis of context of each use. Common situation however. When a person has established their position and won't be bothered by facts, it's easy just to issue a universal denial and stop thinking or examining things.

[PaulSacramento]

You guys forget that for some God= Father and for them that is the identity or God.
The associate the term God as the "name" of The Father so, any mention of Jesus being God means (top them) Jesus = The Father.
They (rightly) point out that Jesus only ever (directly) claimed to be the Son of God, so how cane he be god?
The forget that He also claim to the the :son of man" ( in both prophetic usage from Daniel AND to establish his "mortality".
In short, if Jesus is MAN because he was the Son of Man ( in BOTH senses), then he is God because he claimed to be the Son of God.

[secretfire6]

Hmm ok I think i'm with you guys so far. I love the "species" way of saying it. I see God as a collective. God is spirit and is in many things..all things. But god is totally unique and there is only one. Where as other species have males and females and other sub groups or relative types, God is self sustaining because, well God exists in everything therefore has and is everything. Is it true that the first trinity of the church was " the father, the son and mother mary"?

I also don't really think God is making NEW spirits everytime someone is born. I understand that we are all pieces of God, lets say "cells" if you will. When Genesis says "God breathed the breath of life into his nostrils" It tells me of a very personal and intimate transfer from within himself to Adam. That was for someone that was not born by conventional means. Our spirits still come from within God and enter the body when we are born, but I understand that we existed long before that moment. God talks in the OT about people being transgressors from the womb. How can that be? How could he know that unless someone existed before they were born? Even though we suffer in the curse of the fall, we cannot take the blame for causing it. That was the individual choices of Eve and Adam, so calling a newborn a transgressor doesn't have to do with the fall. I think those transgressors from the womb either disobeyed God in the spirit realm, like the angels in the books of Genesis and Enoch, or had lived other lives and done evil, not learning from them.
What Paul Sacramento said in his last statement just got me thinking. He said "In short, if Jesus is MAN because he was the Son of Man ( in BOTH senses), then he is God because he claimed to be the Son of God." I thought, we are all children of God and we are all children of mankind, doesn't that make Jesus more SIMILAR to us than DIFFERENT? I'm not trying to downplay Jesus or anything that he is or did, but for most of my church going life I was given the idea that Jesus is out of reach, that we can't attain what he can, that we are flawed and he is perfect, that we can't do what he can do. We can't do it so don't even try, just worship and thank him. Now that I'm independant and finding things out for myself, I fail to find any biblical indication that we cannot and should not aspire to be like the Christ and that we could never do the things he did. I acctually find more support for the possibility that we can be just like Christ and do the things he can do. lets take a look at what Jesus overcame and the miracles he performed. He was tempted by Satan himself in the desert. Could we resist an offer to be ruler of the kingdoms and super wealthy? YES. He was faced with torment and death for declaring the truth and stuck with it. Can we do that? YES and many have. Water to wine? Casting out spirits? walk on water? coins in a fishes mouth? Well, look at the abilities the Apostles and disciples had and the OT prophets, especially Moses. Even Pharoe's mages could make their staffs turn into crocodiles mirroring Aaron's and I doubt the mages had holy spirit on their side. With the power of holy spirit and faith in God and ourselves, I think we all can do amazing and glorious feats for our God. Am I missing any scripture that says we can't?

[secretfire6]

Elohim when used of God and the singular verbs to denote "one" I, he, him..etc. God is never a "they" however there are the 4 "us" texts in the bible. Gen 1:26 "let us" but in Gen 1:27 makes it clear that one creator is creating and confirmed by Jesus.

Definately read the link posted by canuckster if you haven't already. It clears up alot of the confusion around the names, references and titles of God in Hebrew.

Maybe we can look at it like bacteria. Lets say we have a bacteria that never mutates or becomes a new strain. We shall call it listeria for simplicity's sake. Since it doesn't change there is only ONE listeria. When you talk about this listeria in certain references it will be singular. There is only one listeria, there is only one God. As we know listeria is a colony of micro organisms that are all the same and all behave the same way and do the same thing. "God is the same yesterday, today and forever". Now we can look under a microscope and see each individual listeria bacteria, each in its own place at it's own time doing it's thing...individuals. So in some references you could refer to listeria in the plural. LISTERIA or IT made so and so sick, THEY produce a toxic whatever. For God it was "let US make man in our image..." "...in the day that HE created them". God is spirit, an essence. God is truth, love and life. God exists in many things, in all places at all times. There is no other spirit, essence, truth, love or life other than God. God is one thing. That's what i'm getting so far
As for Jesus. We know the spirit that eventually became the man Yahoshua, existed with and within God from the beginning. When he was born, that spirit was here on earth and reunited with holy spirit at his baptism. The miracles began after that connection was restored. It was after baptism, but still before ressurection that Jesus said " I am in the father and the father is in me. I and the father are one". His faith was total. He was aware of his existence before birth. After his ressurection he said he will go up to his father and sit at the right hand of the throne. He also said he would send a helper ( HS) to everyone who believed.
So my main question is: in the beginning, during creation, were the Father, the Word and holy spirit the only parts of God there? Were the angels and all of us there too? Are we the "us" and "our" that Genesis records in connection to making mankind?

[PaulSacramento]

So my main question is: in the beginning, during creation, were the Father, the Word and holy spirit the only parts of God there? Were the angels and all of us there too? Are we the "us" and "our" that Genesis records in connection to making mankind?

Which part of creation?
When the universe was created, there was only God but when the Earth was created, the angels existed already.
Angels were NOT part of the creative process of Earth, angels have no creative powers at all, they are, like we will be, "evolved" spirit beings but NOT God(s).