Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:

In my case, I went to bed an atheist and I woke up a believer...and saved.

Please, continue...I gotta hear this.

Nope. I think too much emphasis is being placed on testimonials. I don't read them and if I have to listen to one, I tune out. May the Lord chastise me, be it ever so severely, if I give my testimony!

You won't convince an atheist to take Christianity seriously by debates, so I avoid these. I just answer their questions and offer them an easy-to-read Bible, free. God does the convincing/convicting and I am only his servant.

FL

Nope. I think too much emphasis is being placed on testimonials. I don't read them and if I have to listen to one, I tune out. May the Lord chastise me, be it ever so severely, if I give my testimony!

This isn't a courtroom, FL. I just want to hear how you went to bed an atheist, and woke up saved.
No need to be embarrassed here. We're all one big, dysfunctional family. You can even tell me in French if you want.

Uh, oh, Rick, this is beginning to smell of a "regeneration" tale , of which I might have to thoroughly investigage.

Philip wrote:Uh, oh, Rick, this is beginning to smell of a "regeneration" tale , of which I might have to thoroughly investigage.

Philip, do you mean regeneration "tail"? Like when a skink loses its tail, and it regenerates a new one?
FL may stink, but he's no skink.
Furstentum Liechtenstein, aka Pepe le Pew.

Rick, have you ever considered therapy for that demented sense of humor you have? I hope not!

Philip wrote:Rick, have you ever considered therapy for that demented sense of humor you have? I hope not!

Rick is already in an asylum. No therapy is possible but he takes medication that allows him to function...somewhat.

RickD wrote:I just want to hear how you went to bed an atheist, and woke up saved.

There is too much emphasis on testimonials in today's church. We've gone all goofy with emotionalism and have put the spotlight on sinners' experiences while ignoring that it is all about Jesus.



Anyway, I say we shouldn't be concerned about stubborn lost people. As long as they pay their rent, I won't care. They are God's problem and he can deal with them. However, if they ask a question about God, I'll answer but will not debate.

Anyway, I say we shouldn't be concerned about stubborn lost people. As long as they pay their rent, I won't care. They are God's problem and he can deal with them. However, if they ask a question about God, I'll answer but will not debate.

Paul and the Apostles would greatly disagree, as does God, who was so concerned about them/us that He went to a brutal death because of it.

However, to debate people who are not sincere in their responses, and nor are they truly listening to or even caring about what truth can be known about spiritual matters, who, no doubt, are just throwing out "rabbits" that only multiply along with their many holes? NO! Such people are trying so hard to avoid God's truths and are so determined to remain in rebellion to him, that to continue to engage them is a pointless waste of our time, energy and intellect. And for such people, theirs is not a problem of knowledge, insight, or effectively argued information. Their REAL problem is a hard, rebellious heart!

cubeus19 wrote:Hello everyone, I've got something very serious on my mind. With all the "new atheist" garbage still going around, I noticed that recently it has taken hold in the area where I live and just recently a close friend of mine became an atheist. Not to mention, a few of my family members are considering it as well.

I grew up in a heavily Catholic family, communion at 12, confirmed at 17.

cubeus19 wrote: What's very scary is that when someone becomes an atheist it is extremely difficult to get them back. And more and more I'm noticing that many nonbelievers will refuse to listen no matter what. And it seems that no matter how hard we try or how hard we pray nothing seems to work.

Personally, I've read the Bible twice through, off and on when I was was younger. I've read the Quran once all the way through, I've also studied Buddhism.
I became an Atheist when I read the Bible through the first time, however, I didn't know it at the time, it took a long while for my mind to process.
I'm not sure how anyone is able to read the bible cover to cover and not become an Atheist.

So, regarding the lost people who refuse to listen, are we as believers supposed to continue to argue with them, pray for them, worry about them and drive ourselves nuts over them going to hell or should we just let them be and not let the fact of them going to hell bother us anymore?

Refuse to listen to what exactly? Your superstition that isn't backed by any evidence? What of the superstitions of others? Islam? Zues? Apollo? There is as much evidence for Zues as there is for your God.

Because on one end, we are told to pray without ceasing, but in another area of the New Testament the apostles were told to "shake the dust off their feet" to any village or people that refuse to listen to what they have to say.

The new testament also requests you to do the following, are you going to carry out the following?:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)


You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)


"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)


A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)


Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)


1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)


If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)


A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)


Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)


They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)


If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)


Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)


But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)


1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)


One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)


1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)


So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)


For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)


The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)



I mean, for me I really am very sensitive to lost people and I really hurt for them and for myself especially for my lost friends and loved ones. But in all honesty, should we as Christians care so much? Because on one end Christ tells us to love others as we love our self, but love people too much God says they we are not worthy of Him.

As a Christian, you believe in Heaven, so you also believe in Hell, so yes you should care.
As a Christian how can you enjoy Heaven knowing that many are burning in hell?

I starting to think I really shouldn't waste my time with people who refuse to listen. Instead of crying and being depressed about the stubborn lost wouldn't it be better to refocus my energy on reaching the lost who will still listen?

You are suffering needlessly, welcome to religion.

cubeus19 wrote: Also, I'm really concerned about the afterlife. If I make it into heaven and hardly any of my friends and loved ones make it in, how will I or others who are in the same situation, be able to be happy and enjoy anything while knowing that their friends and loved ones are suffering in hell? I used to think in the past before this new atheism garbage became popular that I wouldn't be put in that situation and most if not all my friends and family would be saved, but now I think the opposite is true.

EXACTLY. "How can I enjoy heaven when my friends are in hell." You are at the first step of Atheism. It doesn't make sense.

There is no evidence for heaven or hell, most people are groomed by their family into their belief via the fear of hell. Do not give into the the fear of hell dogma. A relationship with Jesus feels good, but because it feels good does not mean it is true. Before I became an Atheist I converted to Buddhism, I felt the same feelings for Jesus as I did for the new religion.

What do you think I and every other believer should handle these questions? Thanks and GB.[/quote]

Experience more than one religion, you will understand.

snorider wrote: The new testament also requests you to do the following, are you going to carry out the following?:

The New Testament said all that eh?

snorider wrote: I grew up in a heavily Catholic family, communion at 12, confirmed at 17.

Personally, I've read the Bible twice through, off and on when I was was younger. I've read the Quran once all the way through, I've also studied Buddhism.
I became an Atheist when I read the Bible through the first time, however, I didn't know it at the time, it took a long while for my mind to process.
I'm not sure how anyone is able to read the bible cover to cover and not become an Atheist.

Cool story, bro.

I would hope someone who was raised in a "heavily Catholic family" would at least be equipped of even the most basic understanding of The Bible. (Like knowing the difference between the old and new testaments for one.)

You've already got your mind made up, why are you here? Atheist missionary work?
Everything you've said so far has been debunked here and other places again and again and again. It's the same old tired, second-hand "arguments" that have been discussed and rebuked ad nauseum.
You are like a giant mouthpiece with no capacity for hearing anything except for your own words. When someone answers, you merely move on to something else.
It's rather incredible, actually.

Even more incredible is that most of the people here still seem patient enough to answer you.

snorider wrote:

cubeus19 wrote:Hello everyone, I've got something very serious on my mind. With all the "new atheist" garbage still going around, I noticed that recently it has taken hold in the area where I live and just recently a close friend of mine became an atheist. Not to mention, a few of my family members are considering it as well.

I grew up in a heavily Catholic family, communion at 12, confirmed at 17.

cubeus19 wrote: What's very scary is that when someone becomes an atheist it is extremely difficult to get them back. And more and more I'm noticing that many nonbelievers will refuse to listen no matter what. And it seems that no matter how hard we try or how hard we pray nothing seems to work.

Personally, I've read the Bible twice through, off and on when I was was younger. I've read the Quran once all the way through, I've also studied Buddhism.
I became an Atheist when I read the Bible through the first time, however, I didn't know it at the time, it took a long while for my mind to process.
I'm not sure how anyone is able to read the bible cover to cover and not become an Atheist.

So, regarding the lost people who refuse to listen, are we as believers supposed to continue to argue with them, pray for them, worry about them and drive ourselves nuts over them going to hell or should we just let them be and not let the fact of them going to hell bother us anymore?

Refuse to listen to what exactly? Your superstition that isn't backed by any evidence? What of the superstitions of others? Islam? Zues? Apollo? There is as much evidence for Zues as there is for your God.

Because on one end, we are told to pray without ceasing, but in another area of the New Testament the apostles were told to "shake the dust off their feet" to any village or people that refuse to listen to what they have to say.

The new testament also requests you to do the following, are you going to carry out the following?:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)


You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)


"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)


A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)


Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)


1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)


If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)


A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)


Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)


They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)


If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)


Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)


But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)


1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)


One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)


1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)


So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)


For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)


The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)



I mean, for me I really am very sensitive to lost people and I really hurt for them and for myself especially for my lost friends and loved ones. But in all honesty, should we as Christians care so much? Because on one end Christ tells us to love others as we love our self, but love people too much God says they we are not worthy of Him.

As a Christian, you believe in Heaven, so you also believe in Hell, so yes you should care.
As a Christian how can you enjoy Heaven knowing that many are burning in hell?

I starting to think I really shouldn't waste my time with people who refuse to listen. Instead of crying and being depressed about the stubborn lost wouldn't it be better to refocus my energy on reaching the lost who will still listen?

You are suffering needlessly, welcome to religion.

cubeus19 wrote: Also, I'm really concerned about the afterlife. If I make it into heaven and hardly any of my friends and loved ones make it in, how will I or others who are in the same situation, be able to be happy and enjoy anything while knowing that their friends and loved ones are suffering in hell? I used to think in the past before this new atheism garbage became popular that I wouldn't be put in that situation and most if not all my friends and family would be saved, but now I think the opposite is true.

EXACTLY. "How can I enjoy heaven when my friends are in hell." You are at the first step of Atheism. It doesn't make sense.

There is no evidence for heaven or hell, most people are groomed by their family into their belief via the fear of hell. Do not give into the the fear of hell dogma. A relationship with Jesus feels good, but because it feels good does not mean it is true. Before I became an Atheist I converted to Buddhism, I felt the same feelings for Jesus as I did for the new religion.

What do you think I and every other believer should handle these questions? Thanks and GB.

Experience more than one religion, you will understand.[/quote]
snorider, this is from the board guidelines:

This board is not for those who have strongly made up their mind that Christ is "not" for them; who merely wish to put down, debate, and argue against essential Christian beliefs. As such, those who are Christian, have not made up their minds, or desire civilised discussions on Christianity are encouraged to join, while others who merely wish to attack and try to discredit Christianity are discouraged and will be heavily moderated.

This is a warning. Continued posting of this nature will be met with disciplinary actions.

One of the hardest things to do is to admit we don't know the answer to all the questions but just as hard is to admit that we really don't know HOW to question things that we have a hard time grasping and many times we take the questions of others as our own without realizing that those questions, just are very good ones for what OUR issues are.
In short, if you have issues with OT laws, perhaps a study of the Torah and the OT under the context in which it was written, may be the best way to go.

A lot of the Old Testament SEEMS to reveal a God far less tolerant, loving and understanding than did Jesus in the NT. But such a perception would be very misguided. A great book that reveals explains much of this, that the God of the OT WAS/IS patient, understanding, and loving, and is the very same God revealed by the NT, is: "Is God a Moral Monster, Making Sense of the Old Testament God," by Paul Copland:http://www.amazon.com/Is-God-Moral-Mons ... al+monster

There is too much emphasis on testimonials in today's church. We've gone all goofy with emotionalism and have put the spotlight on sinners' experiences while ignoring that it is all about Jesus.

Interesting. On one hand I agree. However, I wouldn't dismiss testimonials. Especially those that point to Christ and glorify God.

I think the basic testimony is the same for every believer. "I was lost in sin, and Jesus saved me."

I find on one hand there are so many people who have no experience or notice of God working in their lives. Heck, there are a lot on this forum. It seems that every day we have a new thread about someone doubting or losing their faith. And it seems that all this is around evidential areas. Hey, I love studying and such, but this is no substitute for walking out faith. Now don't get me wrong, I am not for experience chasing. But, I do believe that we serve a living God, one who is actively unfolding His plans on this earth. I have seen God's provision and hand at work in my own life. So, for me to deny God would not simply be an issue of rejecting arguments or evidence stacking, but denying what I have seen and handled. And I think that is worth sharing with others.

Yes, our faith is in Jesus Christ, not experiences. But I don't think that means that God is not experienced by the believer as they walk out their faith.

jlay wrote: And I think that is worth sharing with others.

Maybe. Most testimonies I've heard don't make an impact with me. Actually, I only remember one, given to me by an ex-con. One-on-one testimonies in the context of leading someone to Christ are OK with me. Testimonies before an audience make me wince because I've heard veiled self-agrandizement too often.

Anyway, I can only think of one salvation testimony in the Bible: Paul's. Can you think of others?

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

jlay wrote: And I think that is worth sharing with others.

Maybe. Most testimonies I've heard don't make an impact with me. Actually, I only remember one, given to me by an ex-con. One-on-one testimonies in the context of leading someone to Christ are OK with me. Testimonies before an audience make me wince because I've heard veiled self-agrandizement too often.

FL

FL, I understand what you're saying. So given that, you can pm me your testimony.