Evidence for God from Science

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:

Philip wrote:

B.W.'s death experience

Can you please point me to that?

A LAND UNKNOWN: Hell's Dominion, B. W. Melvin

If the subject of NDEs and death experiences interests you, I highly recommend this book.

I did not know this about our B.W.

He doesn't really talk about it unless someone asks. So, if you want to talk about it, just ask. Did I tell you that I recommend his book?

RickD wrote:He doesn't really talk about it unless someone asks. So, if you want to talk about it, just ask. Did I tell you that I recommend his book?

I also recommend B.W.'s book.

Back to the original subject: my wife says that I'm often brain dead. However, I've never been to heaven...or hell. I'm just in Canada.

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

RickD wrote:He doesn't really talk about it unless someone asks. So, if you want to talk about it, just ask. Did I tell you that I recommend his book?

I also recommend B.W.'s book.

Back to the original subject: my wife says that I'm often brain dead. However, I've never been to heaven...or hell. I'm just in Canada.

FL

FL you wife's cast iron frying has so many dents in it that it can't fry a chicken or an egg... Which came first?

Anyway, haven't heard about this man's NDE as I am a bit busy taking care of some family but if you all like to discuss the book of mine - let me know...
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Here is a very good article by William Lane Craig on the subject of life after death and NDEs. I really like his balanced perspective on these topics.


http://www.reasonablefaith.org/transcri ... hen-we-die

B. W. wrote:FL you wife's cast iron frying has so many dents in it that it can't fry a chicken or an egg... Which came first?

My wife has recently re-adopted the cast-iron frying pan after so many of her Teflon no-stick pans have warped because of heat. We even have a way of making the cast-iron pan no-stick. Those interested may PM me for the technique.

The chicken came first as per Genesis 1:20, 21, 22.

Again, I recommend B.W.'s book. Excellent! and better that that book 23 Minutes in Hell by someone else.

FL

Guys didnt Jesus say that the father has prepared different dwelling places in heaven for his followers. Doesn't this help to explain why different people have had different experiences of heaven?

Veridical NDE's also give compelling evidence if the conscience surviving death.
Gary Habermas has a good book on this, but I can't recall the title.
The beauty of veridical nde's is that there have been blind people that have experienced them, and to me this shows that naturalism alone can't explain what is happening.

Some skeptics are scrambling to get their followers to try to redefine the meaning of naturalism to try to better explain this lolol. Why can't they just say spiritual or supernatural without going into convulsions lol.

bippy123 wrote:Guys didnt Jesus say that the father has prepared different dwelling places in heaven for his followers. Doesn't this help to explain why different people have had different experiences of heaven?

Veridical NDE's also give compelling evidence if the conscience surviving death.
Gary Habermas has a good book on this, but I can't recall the title.
The beauty of veridical nde's is that there have been blind people that have experienced them, and to me this shows that naturalism alone can't explain what is happening.

Some skeptics are scrambling to get their followers to try to redefine the meaning of naturalism to try to better explain this lolol. Why can't they just say spiritual or supernatural without going into convulsions lol.

Blind people that have "seen" things during and NDE?
Blind since birth?

PaulSacramento wrote:

bippy123 wrote:Guys didnt Jesus say that the father has prepared different dwelling places in heaven for his followers. Doesn't this help to explain why different people have had different experiences of heaven?

Veridical NDE's also give compelling evidence if the conscience surviving death.
Gary Habermas has a good book on this, but I can't recall the title.
The beauty of veridical nde's is that there have been blind people that have experienced them, and to me this shows that naturalism alone can't explain what is happening.

Some skeptics are scrambling to get their followers to try to redefine the meaning of naturalism to try to better explain this lolol. Why can't they just say spiritual or supernatural without going into convulsions lol.

Blind people that have "seen" things during and NDE?
Blind since birth?

Paul both types. People blind since birth and people that were blind when they had their NDE experience.
Gary R. Habermas and J.P. Moreland have documented these cases and many others in their book "The Other Side Of Death". The evidence is very compelling. I remember having a dsicussion about NDE's once with an atheist in a chat room. He said it was interesting but he wouldnt believe in it simply because scientists couldnt reproduce the nde's in a lab repeatedly. His mind was totally closed so he ended up ignoring the evidence. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink. lol

http://www.loamagazine.org/nr/eternal_l ... f_the.html

Near death experiences

Near death experiences also testify to the human soul’s existence and endurance after death. In their book Immortality: The Other Side Of Death, Gary R. Habermas and J.P. Moreland have documented numerous instances of people, including sightless people, who suffered clinical death. One blind man experienced clinical death as a result of a tragic accident. After regaining consciousness, he was able to describe in the minutest detail the manner in which the medical staff resuscitated him. All this, he had observed through the “eyes” of his soul. Other people, blind from birth, have also described the process of their resuscitation. These descriptions include details such as the color of the clothing and jewelry worn by members of the medical personnel.

The disappearance of brain waves for a given period is currently the most important indicator of natural death. But there have been cases of people whose encephalogram (EEG) indicated a total cessation of brain waves, i.e. their brain had stopped functioning; and yet documented evidence shows that during this period of clinical death when the patient’s brain had stopped working, the mind had registered and later, after resuscitation, was able to recall the smallest details of the events taking place precisely during this period of “brain death.” Here is clear evidence that human consciousness does not depend on the brain and continues to exist after the death of the body.

Habermas and Moreland describe the case of a woman whose EEG indicated brain death and who consequently had been pronounced dead. Yet three and a half hours later, when her body was being removed to the morgue, the woman suddenly regained consciousness and lifted the sheet covering her face. Later, she recounted that she had been floating over her body throughout the resuscitation attempts and seen and heard everything. She remembered every detail from the time her brain had been in a state of clinical death. The astounded doctors were forced to declare that the patient’s account of the event was in total accord with the truth.

More evidence for the soul, and nde's in blind people from a doctor that he been studying nde's for over 20 years

http://scienceonyourside.blogspot.com/2 ... d-see.html

Saturday, July 21, 2007
Near Death The Blind See
During clinical death 80% of the blind report being able to see. That is correct; your eyes are not deceiving you. This holds true even for people who are born blind and have never experienced vision. This is the stunning finding of research done by Dr. Kenneth Ring, Professor of Psychology at the University of Connecticut and his co-researcher Sharon Cooper. Dr. Ring co-founder of the International Association for Near Death Studies has been researching near death experiences (NDE) for over 20 years and is a well-known author in the field.

NDE has become the acronym for that set of phenomena that people all over the world report during periods of clinical death. By now many people have heard about these phenomena that occur when people die and are resuscitated. During the period when they are considered dead about one third undergo an NDE. The NDE’s usually have several common elements. These include the experience of leaving one’s body and viewing oneself, the people and environment in the immediate surroundings. Many also report traveling through a tunnel and coming out on the other end in the presence of a Being of Light, frequently identified as Jesus Christ. They often report going through a review of their lives. The most important impression that these people are left with is a feeling of intense, total love that they experience from the Being of Light. Those who experience an NDE almost universally report not wanting to leave this love to return to Earth. Most people who undergo an NDE report that the experience transforms their lives and leaves them more focused on the truly important things such as loving and serving others and appreciating what they have, especially their families.

Interestingly, when the blind have NDE’s they report exactly the same phenomena. They see both this world and the next. When people who are born blind recover their sight through a natural process, such as a medical procedure, they report an initial period of disorientation because it takes their minds sometime to learn how to interpret the new visual input. This is exactly what the blind report during an NDE. Those who were blind from birth report having difficulty relating to what they are seeing, whereas those who lost sight later in life immediately recognize the return of vision.

This research is reported among other sources in the Summer 1997 issue of “The Anomalist”. Given the rather amazing result the authors try to come up with a naturalistic explanation for this phenomenon. They are able to eliminate certain explanations such as fantasy by independently verifying details through corroborating evidence. For example those who died in surgery were asked to describe the surgery room, the hospital and other environmental factors, which a blind person could not know, were there. This sometimes included such observations as relatives in the waiting room that they had no way of knowing were there at the time. Dr. Ring and his co-researcher Sharon Cooper were also able to eliminate a host of other natural explanations for why the blind can see at death, such as dream based explanations, sensory-cueing, skin based sight and a host of others.

WHY THIS IS IMPORTANT!

Ring and Cooper searched thoroughly for a naturalistic explanation for their findings. This is not surprising because they are scientists and scientists in most cases argue that the proper focus of science is the realm of the natural. Many and possibly most scientists would argue further that there is no supernatural realm. However, it is not clear what the conclusion of Ring and Cooper is in this case. Their determination as to what is the cause of sight in the blind near death seems to be somewhat muddled. This is not surprising because of the clearly supernatural implications of this research.

How can the blind possibly see at death? They were blind before and they are blind after the NDE, yet during the death period some can describe what only a sighted person can perceive. They cannot see these things with their eyes, so how do the blind transcend their blindness near death?

The answer is obvious but hard to swallow for many. This is clear evidence for the existence of a transcendental part of the human being. It points to the existence of a Soul or Spirit. Vision can be impaired in the physical body with blindness resulting, but when the Soul is separated from the body this impediment is removed because the Soul does not depend on the physical body for vision. Therefore during death sight is possible but leaves again upon resuscitation.

RickD wrote:

Philip wrote:

B.W.'s death experience

Can you please point me to that?

A LAND UNKNOWN: Hell's Dominion, B. W. Melvin

If the subject of NDEs and death experiences interests you, I highly recommend this book.

Or if you prefer Bryan's (B.W.) live youtube video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2X5uAB6 ... re=related

Habermas and Moreland describe the case of a woman whose EEG indicated brain death and who consequently had been pronounced dead. Yet three and a half hours later, when her body was being removed to the morgue, the woman suddenly regained consciousness and lifted the sheet covering her face. Later, she recounted that she had been floating over her body throughout the resuscitation attempts and seen and heard everything. She remembered every detail from the time her brain had been in a state of clinical death. The astounded doctors were forced to declare that the patient’s account of the event was in total accord with the truth.

What an appropriate re-accounting on Halloween! Can you just imagine the poor workers in the morgue? Theirs' must have been a bit like the guy the other week who had a very close lookalike that was killed in a robbery, yet who was mistakenly identified by another man as being his brother. During the wake, the man everyone thought was lying in the coffin suddenly strolled in to tell everyone he was indeed still alive, with some fainting, some running away in fear.

bippy123 wrote:Guys didnt Jesus say that the father has prepared different dwelling places in heaven for his followers. Doesn't this help to explain why different people have had different experiences of heaven?

No. Just because an interpretation is common does not make it correct. The verse in question is John 14:3 Contextually it says,
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
-The words home and house are the issue. We tend to ascribe our use of the word, as if God is up in heaven building houses. The KJV says in my Father's house are many mansions, which even more confuses the issue if we are imposing our use of the word.
John 14:23 says, "My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. "
This is the same word translated room/mansion in verse two. It is better spoken as abiding place. Just as Jesus says in chapter 15 about abide in me and I in you. And the word translated house can also refer to the family or household.
Now, we have this translation: In my Father's household are many dwelling places. The context of the John 14 is the promise of the HS. I would say this verse isn't about heaven at all, but about God indwelling the disciples. When God indwells the believer, they truly are a mansion.

Updated interview with neurosurgeon who claims he visited heaven: http://magazine.foxnews.com/love/heaven ... -afterlife

Clearly, his further comments about his NDE reveal that it appears that he has been demonically deceived. Else why the following comments concerning his visit?

“I’ve come to know absolutely the existence of an all-loving and powerful God — that our souls are eternal,” Dr. Alexander said. “I go to church all the time, but I have also come to realize strongly that there is no one right religion. All aspects of religion have everything to do with the rich, deep, eternal reality,” he explained. “Anything about religion that says they are the only one is just doomed dysfunctional human thinking. It’s all about showing compassion and forgiveness in our lives and giving our faith and belief to the source of all creation.”

“We can connect with our loved ones after they have passed over; believing that and then seeing evidence with that is such a gift. It’s a very powerful gift.”

Philip wrote:Clearly, his further comments about his NDE reveal that it appears that he has been demonically deceived. Else why the following comments concerning his visit?

Well, he does say that he ''goes to church all the time'' so - hopefully - when he says that ''there is no one right religion'' he means no one ''correct'' Christian denomination.

(Okay, I'm fishing...)

And, thinking that he can connect with deceased relatives while in the body is demonic. Maybe he's just confused...? He needs prayer.

FL

Well, he does say that he ''goes to church all the time'' so - hopefully - when he says that ''there is no one right religion'' he means no one ''correct'' Christian denomination.

FL, I only wish you are right on the above. But the very fact that he continuously references "religion" and not "Christianity" is very troubling. Even more so, he never says anything about seeing God/Jesus or being in His presence. His focus is stuff like "beautiful butterflies and flowers, with souls dancing and angels," and "a place filled with clouds and the sound of chanting, and was met by a beautiful blue-eyed woman" - yet not a whiff about God Himself. And, perhaps most telling, He did not describe himself, previous to this experience, as being a Christian - says he was a "nominal" Christian who "lacked the faith to believe in eternal life." Which begs the question - how could he have entered heaven, even temporarily, if he had not already been a true believer?

This smells of a counterfeit experience and magnificent deception. And, if true, suggests that the demonic has power to enter into and deceive one in an unconscious state.