When you say 'they have a special place' are you saying they must be obeyed with a relevance to salvation or are they simply nice concepts that don't require observance as a salvation issue?
PaulSacramento wrote:Well, I don't think that a persons salvation is based on how they keep the 10 Commandments, no.
I believe it to be based on Christ's sacrifice and His Divine Grace.
I am not simply making an argument for 'how' they keep the 10.... my position is 'whether' they keep the 10.
And the truth is that ultimately you can't go through an automated salvation process, I have no illusion about that whatsoever. When the laws for sacrifice were given to the Jews it became a sort of automated process that relied entirely on performing according to the letter but it held no power over the thoughts... When Christ came he showed that the 10 were not simply outward laws but they were inward as well. The new covenant includes the magnification of the 10... the new and improved commandments that reach farther than the letter did and now there are no sacrificial laws that anyone could go perform to take carre of those nasty sins anymore since Christ fulfilled those laws specifically. Only the laws that are directly tied to how sins were dealt with were capable of being fulfilled. So now if you sin by not obeying the commandments both outwardly and inwardly your / our only recourse for that sin is Christ and it will ultimately be his choice as to whether he will forgive them. Remember the people who will assert they believed they were doing his will? Christ is going to say to some he never knew them. He is going to deny them forgiveness and it will not just be a few.... it will be many. What do you suppose is the basis of that denial?
PaulSacramento wrote:Nothing we DO can earn us salvation.
Indeed by works you can't get it automatically... however, a better way to look at it is that there are many things we can do to lose salvation. Peter knows the reality here; 1Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? If all you have to do is believe then why would the righteous 'scarcely' be saved?
the sinner is one who breaks Gods commandments why would Peter refer to commandment breakers if there were none to break? how has the decalogue stopped being a direct dirivitive of the two greatest commandments and not still fully applicable? The truth is they never were done away with but rather magnified to hold a greater importance to Christs sheep because when we obey the 'intent' of the decalogue we are obeying the royal law defined by the two greatest commandments.
Mat 4:4 It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Christ was / is quite serious about his Fathers commands; Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
What does Christ say can specificaly come out of a man to defile him? All the very same things that are commanded for us 'not' to do because doing them makes us unholy and unfit as a vessel for the holy spirit to dwell within. Our flesh bodies don't break the commands of God it is our minds which conceive and our bodies simply obey the mind. So if you hate another then you are also breaking the command to not murder because it is like murder in your heart. Christ magnified his fathers command and showed how its new meaning applies to us all.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
PaulSacramento wrote: The 10 Commandments are God's commandments for us to keep and we keep them because we love God, not because of fear of any punishment or to make us deserving of anything.
You should review your fear of any punishment position;
2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
When Christ taught about the abuse of the sabbath he was refering to 'how' the sabbath day (which is unchangeable as the seventh day) was being observed on that day of the week. Not as some infer that the very day of the week itself is up for interpretation. This is the fuzzy little gray area that makes a separation among some denominations and really needs clarification.
PaulSacramento wrote:If the Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around, then man must keep the Sabbath on His way.
I agree that we must keep the Sabbath, to work 6 days and rest the seventh.
Man does not have the power to redifine which day of the week was made holy. If your 'way' of observing it is to give reverence to another day then you would be exceeding the power we were given. Tell me which of us men has the power to redefine that which God has made holy and blessed?
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Christ has stated directly that he is Lord ''even'' of the seventh day sabbath. He has the power to define what is proper on the one day that his father made holy. Which is exactly what he says here;
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
So what have we been told is proper to do as his followers? It is proper / lawful to do well on the sabbath days. We are promoted to perform / do good on the sabbath not redefine when the sabbath is. Asserting that we have the power to define when the sabbath day is, is to assert that we have more power than God or Christ.
PaulSacramento wrote:See, here is what we are doing, we are INTERPRETING which of the 600+ Laws we are to keep.
Christ didn't make a solid and concrete statement on which Laws are binding to gentiles and He didn't make a solid and concrete statement on which Laws remained binding to Jews.
The sacrificial laws were binding to the Jews that part is absolutely clear. Those laws were also able to be fulfilled. Tell me how was the decalogue fulfilled? how was this fulfilled;
Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Lev 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
Lev 18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
Lev 18:26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
Lev 18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)
Lev 18:28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
Lev 18:29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
Lev 18:30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.
Do you think God has changed his mind about these things? are these things still applicable? How do you suppose Christ would look on those who do such things? Can a man be holy and do these things?
He can if Christ fulfilled them, And this line of reasoning is exactly what you are saying in the next quote...
PaulSacramento wrote:He said He had fulfilled the Law which, like a fulfilled prophecy, means it has come to its conclusion.
As you stated earlier, the direct comments on the Law by Christ were:
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
You have assumed he meant the whole set of laws and not considered that he means the ones that could be fulfilled. The error of course is presuming that all of Gods laws were able to be fulfilled by Christ. It should have been quite clear that Christ came to fulfill the sacrificial laws since these are the only ones that could be fulfilled. The decalogue on the other hand stopped being simply an external law and was magnified to cover the internal as well which is quite clearly stated by Christ as I noted above.
Ultimately it is your choice whether to obey any of the laws other than the sacrificial ones but remember it is Christs choice whether to cover your sins with his blood and Christ loves his father dearly and he loves all the commands his father has spoken. As far as I understand the biblical message I am quite sure that Christs government was not setup like a burger king where we can have it our way.
"Hold the pickles, hold the lettuce. Special orders don't upset us. All we ask is that you let us serve it your way!"
If this was the way God wanted things to work then Adam and Eve did nothing more than do things their way and it should have been ok right? And Cain should not be held accountable for abel since there was no law law yet given for murder. Tell me how was it possible for Cain to have murdered Abel if there was no law?
The commandment not to murder should not be something we are commanded to not do. This is the type of thing a holy loving soul would never do whether told to or not. The decalogue and many other commands are quite nearly the holyness for dummies guide for those who don't already know what wrong is. All of these types of commandments from God are there to help us understand his nature and how we can be like him. When Christ came he became the new offering for when we screw up, he fulfilled all the old methods that had been observed to remove the curse of sin but he certainly would never throw out the very things provided by our maker that defines what wrong is.
And I agree.. When we understand that we use the B'rit Hadasha (NT) to decode the Tanach (OT) and not destroy it, it completely transforms the entire meaning. I never knew this type of wisdom was in there.. Now I look at His word in a renewed light. It really is simply amazing stuff..