Page 2 of 5

Re: Divine Command Morality

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:35 am
by PaulSacramento
snorider wrote:[
PaulSacramento wrote: The only "attrocities" commited directly by God were:
Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Plagues of Egypt.
Taken into their context and the reasons given, IF God is a Just God, then those acts were warranted.
I haven't responded, I can't describe how much the following makes me sick to my stomach, I still can't respond... If this is the thinking processes it shows how dangerous religion is.
I really don't think you understand the theology behind what I wrote there ( and yes this is a theological discussion).
IF God is GOD, that means He is All knowing and the creator of ALL the exists, He is also "all good" and "all Just" so by the very definition of being GOD< ANYTHING He does is Just and Moral.
Not anything WE DO, but WHAT HE DOES DIRECTLY.
What a human does by virtue of what He/She things God is commanding them to do is NOT just be "default" since they are NOT God and any human action MUST be judged as moral or immoral or just or injust based on human standards.
God, if He is GOD< is NOT subject to those standards because, being God, anything He does DIRECTLY is by the very definition of Him, Just and Moral.
Whether we understand it or not is irrelevant.
A colony of ants may not understand why we have to "destroy" it for the preservation of a greater good, but there understanding is irrelevant to whether it must be done.

Re: Divine Command Morality

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:25 pm
by Danieltwotwenty
snorider wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote: The only "attrocities" commited directly by God were:
Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Plagues of Egypt.
Taken into their context and the reasons given, IF God is a Just God, then those acts were warranted.
I haven't responded, I can't describe how much the following makes me sick to my stomach, I still can't respond... If this is the thinking processes it shows how dangerous religion is.
So do you think that God should have left these debauched humans to continue with their sacrifice of small children, sodomy of small children, raping of men and women, murdering etc.... Now that would make me sick :xxpuke: if God allowed this behaviour to continue, but you seem to think that this behaviour was not deserving of ANY punishment. :shakehead:

I agree with you that religion is bad, but God is not a religion, man creates religion.

Do I have to remind you of other threads where we have talked about atheists who have killed more people than any religion ever has, don't tell me religion is bad when they don't even compare to the millions atheistic regimes have killed. y#-o

Dan

Re: Divine Command Morality

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:41 pm
by Furstentum Liechtenstein
snorider wrote:Ah, we are going with human nature not religion driven.. Interesting..
Religion is part of human nature.

Your posts here reek of a scornful superiority, the same scornful superiority that causes people to fly planes into buildings and bomb abortion clinics.

You are very much like the people you condemn.

FL y~o)

Re: Divine Command Morality

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:41 am
by snorider
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
snorider wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote: The only "attrocities" commited directly by God were:
Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Plagues of Egypt.
Taken into their context and the reasons given, IF God is a Just God, then those acts were warranted.
I haven't responded, I can't describe how much the following makes me sick to my stomach, I still can't respond... If this is the thinking processes it shows how dangerous religion is.
So do you think that God should have left these debauched humans to continue with their sacrifice of small children, sodomy of small children, raping of men and women, murdering etc.... Now that would make me sick :xxpuke: if God allowed this behaviour to continue, but you seem to think that this behaviour was not deserving of ANY punishment. :shakehead:

I agree with you that religion is bad, but God is not a religion, man creates religion.

Do I have to remind you of other threads where we have talked about atheists who have killed more people than any religion ever has, don't tell me religion is bad when they don't even compare to the millions atheistic regimes have killed. y#-o

Dan
Dan, God killed EVERYONE, how is that justice?

The biggest problem is:
There are multiple religions, every person of every other religion thinks God is JUST as you do. Some religions are not as friendly as the Christian religion, and that's putting it lightly, the Christian religion hasn't been "exactly" nice but in comparison to some of the other religions out there it's seeming nice since those religions still practice the brutality today.


A divine being that created the ENTIRE universe could have selected those that deserved to die. Instead we have something that seems to be made up by human knowledge at that time.

If there is a God I don't believe for a second the divine would need to use a flood or any other means to get rid of "sinners". It's so ridiculous, I can't believe it's even considered seriously by grown adults.

If an Atheist kills, it's for his own agenda, not driven by any kind of God or religion. The thousands of years of human ignorance have caused sacrifices, crusades, stonings, burnings driven by religion. Unfortunately the stonings still exist in some of the most uneducated parts of the world, it's a reminder of what it was like for all of us not so long ago, witch burning etc...

Divine Command Morality is extremely dangerous, it allows perfectly good people to do bad things in the name of God.


-Jordan

Re: Divine Command Morality

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:50 am
by snorider
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
snorider wrote:Ah, we are going with human nature not religion driven.. Interesting..
Religion is part of human nature.

Your posts here reek of a scornful superiority, the same scornful superiority that causes people to fly planes into buildings and bomb abortion clinics.

You are very much like the people you condemn.

FL y~o)
Religion for the majority of people is passed on from family, not all but MOST follow the religion of their family or what is prevalent to their geological location.
If you lived in Ancient Greece you probably would have believed in Apollo and Zues along with your family, if you lived in Pakistan under a Muslim family more than likely you would be Muslim. As I said not always, but most people adopt the religion they were exposed to as a child. Is this true for you?

I don't wish for my posts to "reek of a scornful superiority", that is not my intention. I'm trying to understand.

Stating "You are very much like the people you condemn." is very offensive.

Thanks,
Jordan

Re: Divine Command Morality

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:16 am
by Furstentum Liechtenstein
snorider wrote:Stating "You are very much like the people you condemn." is very offensive.
It is not my intention to offend you. Rather, I'm holding up a mirror for you to look at.
snorider wrote:I don't wish for my posts to "reek of a scornful superiority", that is not my intention. I'm trying to understand.
You say ''I'm trying to understand'' but your posts reveal that you are argumentative. Since by implication you admit that you do not understand, how could you change your posts to reflect the attitude of someone who really wants to understand?

I'll be looking foreward to your answer.

FL y~o)

Re: Divine Command Morality

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:49 am
by snorider
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote: It is not my intention to offend you. Rather, I'm holding up a mirror for you to look at.
Interesting, do you even know what the subject of this thread is?
The point of this thread IS Divine Command Morality and the influence it has on the population.
This has nothing to do with me.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:You say ''I'm trying to understand'' but your posts reveal that you are argumentative. Since by implication you admit that you do not understand, how could you change your posts to reflect the attitude of someone who really wants to understand?

I'll be looking foreward to your answer.
FL y~o)
Once again, this has nothing to do with the subject.
You haven't contributed anything to this thread, other than questioning my motives.
All of the other members have at least had some sort of input that either provoked thought, a question or had a point.

Thanks,
Jordan

Re: Divine Command Morality

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:36 am
by Furstentum Liechtenstein
snorider wrote:You haven't contributed anything to this thread, other than questioning my motives.
By your own admission, here,
snorider wrote:I'm trying to understand.
...by your own admission, you are ''trying to understand''. If a teacher has a student that keeps objecting and questionning the validity of the subject being taught, is that student in a receptive spirit? Is that student capable of learning?

You say that you are ''trying to understand'' but your posts show otherwise. Your posts are evidence of a mind closed to learning about the Bible, and show off a combative & argumentative spirit. Absolutely no learning will take place under these circumstances. Moreover, your last post shows that you don't have the insight needed to understand even this about yourself.

Under these circumstances, you will learn little - if anything - and will stay in your present state of ignorance.

FL :shakehead:

Re: Divine Command Morality

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:01 pm
by Danieltwotwenty
snorider wrote:Dan, God killed EVERYONE, how is that justice?
Abraham pleads with God to spare Sodom if there was but one rightoues man who lives there, God enacted justice on Sodom because there was not even one rightous man in the whole city.
Here is where Abraham pleads for Sodom.

Genesis 18:16
16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.[c] 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”

20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.[d] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[e] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”

27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”

“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”

29 Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”

He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”

30 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”

He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”

31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”

He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”

32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”

He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”

33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.
God's judgement was just on the people of Sodom, as is made clear from the texts.

snorider wrote:The biggest problem is:
There are multiple religions, every person of every other religion thinks God is JUST as you do. Some religions are not as friendly as the Christian religion, and that's putting it lightly, the Christian religion hasn't been "exactly" nice but in comparison to some of the other religions out there it's seeming nice since those religions still practice the brutality today.
When you say the Christian religion hasn't been exactly nice, I think you mean to say the people who follow it haven't been exactly nice. Does this mean that Christian fundementals are wrong, no it doesn't it just proves that humans are fallible and sinful.
snorider wrote:A divine being that created the ENTIRE universe could have selected those that deserved to die. Instead we have something that seems to be made up by human knowledge at that time.
It only seems that way to you because of your presuppositions, it doesn't seem that way to me at all.
snorider wrote:If there is a God I don't believe for a second the divine would need to use a flood or any other means to get rid of "sinners". It's so ridiculous, I can't believe it's even considered seriously by grown adults.
If God just removed the people, poof and they were gone, you would just turn around and say that "It's so ridiculous, I can't believe it's even considered seriously by grown adults." :roll:
snorider wrote:If an Atheist kills, it's for his own agenda, not driven by any kind of God or religion. The thousands of years of human ignorance have caused sacrifices, crusades, stonings, burnings driven by religion. Unfortunately the stonings still exist in some of the most uneducated parts of the world, it's a reminder of what it was like for all of us not so long ago, witch burning etc...
ALL world views are religious, atheism may be subject to the individual but that does not stop it from having religious aspects, just as FL has pointed out to you that your world view can be just as dangerous as any organised religious one. People do evil stuff for all sorts of reasons, religion has been used as an excuse, so has atheism, it's almost like we have a fallen sin nature that is in need of a saviour. :innocent:

Dan

Re: Divine Command Morality

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:04 pm
by Furstentum Liechtenstein
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
ALL world views are religious, atheism may be subject to the individual but that does not stop it from having religious aspects, just as FL has pointed out to you that your world view can be just as dangerous as any organised religious one. People do evil stuff for all sorts of reasons, religion has been used as an excuse, so has atheism, it's almost like we have a fallen sin nature that is in need of a saviour. :innocent:

Dan
A nice post, Daniel 2:20. You show the difference between orthodoxy and orthopraxy. That is, what Christianity is versus how sinful men practise it. I doubt, however, that an atheist has the ability - the scope of mind - to accept your point. (I should know: I used to be an atheist y:o) )

FL

Re: Divine Command Morality

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:56 am
by PaulSacramento
Divine Command Morality is extremely dangerous, it allows perfectly good people to do bad things in the name of God.
The issue is that IF ( and it's a big IF), it is a divine command is CAN'T be a bad thing.
Your issue I think, and one I agree with by the way, isn't "divine command", it's how does a person KNOW it was a "divine command".
In the bible a divine command was given by God to his chosen prophets, people that the leaders KNEW were in touch with God because they had PROVEN it.
They just didn't take some guys word for it and went to war.
To make a common day analogy:
The only time a leader or a people would follow the "divine command" from a prophet is IF that prophet had proven himself to them AS a prophet ( chosen one of God) and with clear evidence along the lines of Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Jeremiah, etc, etc.
In short, a person that had brought the dead back to life (Elijah), free people with divine signs and events ( Moses), things like that.
If someone brought a person you knew back from the dead, made it rain on command, caused fire and lighting to come down on command, I think that you would view his "divine commands from God" differently, no?

Re: Divine Command Morality

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:53 am
by snorider
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
snorider wrote:You haven't contributed anything to this thread, other than questioning my motives.
By your own admission, here,
snorider wrote:I'm trying to understand.
...by your own admission, you are ''trying to understand''. If a teacher has a student that keeps objecting and questionning the validity of the subject being taught, is that student in a receptive spirit? Is that student capable of learning?

You say that you are ''trying to understand'' but your posts show otherwise. Your posts are evidence of a mind closed to learning about the Bible, and show off a combative & argumentative spirit. Absolutely no learning will take place under these circumstances. Moreover, your last post shows that you don't have the insight needed to understand even this about yourself.

Under these circumstances, you will learn little - if anything - and will stay in your present state of ignorance.

FL :shakehead:
This subject is about Divine Command Morality, please re-read the beginning of the thread. This is not the "Bible: literally or not" thread.

You still haven't stated anything related to the thread, you are simply arguing about the subject matter. I'm doing the same now since I have don't have anything to respond with related to your post. Such a waist of time.

Re: Divine Command Morality

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:24 am
by snorider
Danieltwotwenty wrote: Abraham pleads with God to spare Sodom if there was but one rightoues man who lives there, God enacted justice on Sodom because there was not even one rightous man in the whole city.
Here is where Abraham pleads for Sodom.

Genesis 18:16
16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.[c] 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”

20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.[d] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[e] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”

27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”

“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”

29 Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”

He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”

30 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”

He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”

31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”

He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”

32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”

He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”

33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.

God's judgement was just on the people of Sodom, as is made clear from the texts.
Abraham was about to kill his child, a divine being the created the entire Universe did that why? A yes, a test.

"For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it." But, ah, but yet he wiped out all life on Earth?

Look at Uganda today, if you're gay, you will most likely be hanged. This is enforced by religion.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41292753/ns ... t-slaying/

I suppose if God say's it's ok to burn witches, I suppose it's Just because he commands it.



Ignorance is the world's worst enemy.



Danieltwotwenty wrote: When you say the Christian religion hasn't been exactly nice, I think you mean to say the people who follow it haven't been exactly nice. Does this mean that Christian fundementals are wrong, no it doesn't it just proves that humans are fallible and sinful.
Of Course people without religion can do horrible things, they are doing it because they are bad people, they aren't good people using religion as excuse to do bad things in the name of a higher power.

People do horrible things in the name of RELIGION, not just the Christian religion, many religions have ridiculous rules that allow normally good people to do horrible things because they think they are doing it for their GOD.
Danieltwotwenty wrote: It only seems that way to you because of your presuppositions, it doesn't seem that way to me at all.
God is omnipresent and omniscient correct? Get back to me with those definitions.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:If God just removed the people, poof and they were gone, you would just turn around and say that "It's so ridiculous, I can't believe it's even considered seriously by grown adults." :roll:
If people want "poof" that would be a little more believable and fair to the thousands if not millions of unborn children that didn't even have a chance at life.
What's more likely? An exaggerated story, or genocide? I'm happy you are defending genocide. (sarcasm)
Danieltwotwenty wrote: ALL world views are religious, atheism may be subject to the individual but that does not stop it from having religious aspects, just as FL has pointed out to you that your world view can be just as dangerous as any organised religious one. People do evil stuff for all sorts of reasons, religion has been used as an excuse, so has atheism, it's almost like we have a fallen sin nature that is in need of a saviour. :innocent:

Dan
All world views are religious? Apparently you haven't read the statistics lately.
The majority of the most educated are Agnostic or Atheist, there is a reason for that.
A good majority of Scientists fall into the secular category, trying to improve the human race.
Now you could reply with the invention of the atom bomb but that was politically motivated.
Instead of getting chemo pray to him, if you get the chicken pox, pray, if you get a simple infection when cutting veggies, pray. Do not rely on Science, do not see a doctor.. Lets see how well you do.


Bad people will be bad people, it takes religion for good people to do bad things.

-Jordan

Re: Divine Command Morality

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:56 am
by Sam1995
Divine Command Morality is extremely dangerous, it allows perfectly good people to do bad things in the name of God.
This is just the euthyphro dilemna, is an act good because God commands it to be good or is the act already good in itself? Simply saying that people can do bad acts in the name of God because they tell us that God told them to do it is simply disobedience to Christ. Although God commands what is good, this does not mean for a second that He commands something which is bad and because He commands it, the act suddenly becomes good. NO! His word and revelation both reveal to us in line with scripture both what is good and what is bad. Therefore nobody can claim to do a bad act because God commanded them to do so.
Bad people will be bad people, it takes religion for good people to do bad things.
That is nonsense, shall I bring your attention to the number of evil acts committed in the name of atheism also?

SB

Re: Divine Command Morality

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:17 pm
by Danieltwotwenty
I am no longer going to respond to Jordan, sorry mate but you are blinded and going by your responses I feel that you don't even try to absorb what is being said.

The amount of times I have repeated things is beyond insanity, and still you bring them up.

All you want to do is grind your axe and I shall have no more part in that.

Good luck, I really hope you one day understand how much God loves you.


Dan