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Re: Who makes the choice?
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:07 pm
by PaulSacramento
1over137 wrote:Jlay, I'm thinking about your reply. I am looking at the John 6 and this is there:
"26 Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” 30 So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”"
What do you think, esp. about the parts in bold?
First off, WHO was Jesus talking to?
How would they have understood Him? How would He have KNOWN they would understand Him? In which Way?
Remember, John was not written TO Us.
Re: Who makes the choice?
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:10 am
by jlay
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
What a profound statement by Jesus. These disciples (remember these were people literally chasing after Jesus) were given the Gospel truth.
One of the most difficult parts of this text is John 6:65. We know it's difficult because many disciples gave up and left. If one reads the NIV, this makes it sound even more in favor of unconditional election and limited atonement.
Here are a couple of other translations.
-ESV "And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
-CJB "This," he said, "is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has made it possible for him."
-KJV And he said , Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Question, was Israel given to come unto the Messiah?
The verse you put in bold says This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
Some translations say 'it' and some say 'them'. Pretty big difference don't you think? So, what is the 'all' that he is given, and what is the 'it' that will be raise up on the last day? It's a tough question and certainly one theologians have studied for a long time. Obviously the context inidcates Jesus speaking to apostate Israel about the promises to restore Israel. The miracle itself was indicative and tied to the feeding of Israel in the wilderness. The fact that they filled 12 baskets is of no coincidence that it matches the 12 tribes. Notice in verse twelve what Jesus says about gathering the left over bread.
When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.
Re: Who makes the choice?
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:27 pm
by 1over137
So, the 'all' in John 6 is simply Israel?
Re: Who makes the choice?
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:22 am
by jlay
That would certainly be an interpretation consistent with the text. Jesus does quote a very Zionist prophecy from Isaiah.