Evidence for God from Science

Well, since this very subject has been debate for the last 20 centuries, I am not sure what can be said that hasn't been said already, LOL !

Lol indeed! Still, quite enjoyable to hear the atheists cherry picking scripture straight out of context to make the Bible look silly!
Good times...

SB

Sam1995 wrote:Lol indeed! Still, quite enjoyable to hear the atheists cherry picking scripture straight out of context to make the Bible look silly!
Good times...

SB

Most atheists know the parts of the bible they want to know and HOW they want to know them.
Context and such are irrelevant to them.
The bible can be viewed as either or both a theological or historical book, either way to understand it we must understand the history behind each book, to who it was written, by whom and why.
Only then can we BEGIN to formulate a view on passages within THAT book and those views won't necessarily equate to another book or letter.

Still, gotta admire the bravery of some of them, randomly cherry picking scripture! I get a laugh out of it at least!

The one that currently pops up in class is the "THOU SHALT NOT KILL.....why did God kill then?" lol...

SB

Sam1995 wrote:Still, gotta admire the bravery of some of them, randomly cherry picking scripture! I get a laugh out of it at least!

The one that currently pops up in class is the "THOU SHALT NOT KILL.....why did God kill then?" lol...

SB

Well, don't hold that against them, christians are just as bad with cherry picking as atheists.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Sam1995 wrote:Still, gotta admire the bravery of some of them, randomly cherry picking scripture! I get a laugh out of it at least!

The one that currently pops up in class is the "THOU SHALT NOT KILL.....why did God kill then?" lol...

SB

Well, don't hold that against them, christians are just as bad with cherry picking as atheists.

Very true!

SB

To those who would mistakenly argue that certain Mosaic laws such as the tithing, dietary, festival, and Saturday Sabbath laws have been abolished, I sincerely ask them: how do you explain Galatians 5:18 which says: “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.”? If you interpret this verse as further proof that many Old Testament laws no longer need to be obeyed, doesn’t that idea conflict massively with MANY other major verses, especially two “gold standard” verses: ACTS 2:38: “Repent, and ….. be baptized ….. for the forgiveness of sins; and you shall receive ….. the Holy Spirit” and 1 JOHN 3:4: “…… sin is the violation of the law.”?

To get the vital Holy Spirit in the first place, which is essential for salvation, you need to repent of sinning, which 1 John 3:4 clearly defines as breaking the law or torah. THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN STOP BREAKING THE LAW IS TO OBEY THE LAW!!

Therefore the only interpretation possible of Galatians 5:18’s “not under the law” and similar verses such as “released from the law” and “freed from the law” is that Holy Spirit led Christians are no longer under the penalty (automatic death penalty for many sins) part of the law, but still are under the obedience part of the law, excluding primarily circumcision and the various sacrifices the apostles “went out of their way” to explain as abolished. Romans 8:2: “….. Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death” shows that death, the penalty part of the law, no longer applies to obedient, law (torah) abiding Christians. In some very concise, abbreviated verses the Apostle Paul does not go to the trouble of “spelling out” which part of the law has now been annulled, the penalty part, not the obedience part of the law.

Galatians 5:18 when turned around also reveals that all non-Christians ARE under the law, showing that much of the law was never really abolished.

Visit http://TithingHelps.us to become more knowledgeable about Galatians 5:18 and other pro-law verses that mathematically outnumber by more than 2 to 1 the supposedly, at first glance anti-law verses in the English translations of the New Testament. Matthew 7:23: ".....I never ever knew you, depart from Me, you who violate the torah" (exeGeses Companion Bible) is another extremely revealing verse showing that many Mosaic laws are still in force (the Greek for "violate the torah" is ANOMIA, which overwhelmingly refers to the Mosaic laws), and Matthew 13:41,42 tells us that God really will, someday after the coming Christian millenium, literally incinerate torah violators, in the probably nuclear inferno that will reshape the outer surface of the earth and evaporate the earth's oceans.

Again, I emphatically encourage you to visit http://TithingHelps.us to better understand the large number of verses that clearly support the continued observance of not all, but many Mosaic laws.

I wonder if very many have consider that when Jesus said what he said about the law.

Definition of "fulfill" - "Bring to completion or reality; achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted)."

That yes it was fufilled in him and is yet to be fufilled in the heart of each believer? That we all will have the law written truly on our hearts but that is for a future time in Gods Kingdom and so right now we are under the blood of Christ just as the Jews were under the animal sacrifices.

Digging

Wolfgang wrote:To those who would mistakenly argue that certain Mosaic laws such as the tithing, dietary, festival, and Saturday Sabbath laws have been abolished, I sincerely ask them: how do you explain Galatians 5:18 which says: “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.”? If you interpret this verse as further proof that many Old Testament laws no longer need to be obeyed, doesn’t that idea conflict massively with MANY other major verses, especially two “gold standard” verses: ACTS 2:38: “Repent, and ….. be baptized ….. for the forgiveness of sins; and you shall receive ….. the Holy Spirit” and 1 JOHN 3:4: “…… sin is the violation of the law.”?

To get the vital Holy Spirit in the first place, which is essential for salvation, you need to repent of sinning, which 1 John 3:4 clearly defines as breaking the law or torah. THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN STOP BREAKING THE LAW IS TO OBEY THE LAW!!

Therefore the only interpretation possible of Galatians 5:18’s “not under the law” and similar verses such as “released from the law” and “freed from the law” is that Holy Spirit led Christians are no longer under the penalty (automatic death penalty for many sins) part of the law, but still are under the obedience part of the law, excluding primarily circumcision and the various sacrifices the apostles “went out of their way” to explain as abolished. Romans 8:2: “….. Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death” shows that death, the penalty part of the law, no longer applies to obedient, law (torah) abiding Christians. In some very concise, abbreviated verses the Apostle Paul does not go to the trouble of “spelling out” which part of the law has now been annulled, the penalty part, not the obedience part of the law.

Galatians 5:18 when turned around also reveals that all non-Christians ARE under the law, showing that much of the law was never really abolished.

Visit http://TithingHelps.us to become more knowledgeable about Galatians 5:18 and other pro-law verses that mathematically outnumber by more than 2 to 1 the supposedly, at first glance anti-law verses in the English translations of the New Testament. Matthew 7:23: ".....I never ever knew you, depart from Me, you who violate the torah" (exeGeses Companion Bible) is another extremely revealing verse showing that many Mosaic laws are still in force (the Greek for "violate the torah" is ANOMIA, which overwhelmingly refers to the Mosaic laws), and Matthew 13:41,42 tells us that God really will, someday after the coming Christian millenium, literally incinerate torah violators, in the probably nuclear inferno that will reshape the outer surface of the earth and evaporate the earth's oceans.

Again, I emphatically encourage you to visit http://TithingHelps.us to better understand the large number of verses that clearly support the continued observance of not all, but many Mosaic laws.

Make sure you don't put olive oil on your next sacrificial offering! [Leviticus 5:11 NIV]

SB

Don't know if this totally relates, but I'm sick of arguing this point.

From Luke 10
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” 27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’
36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

If we just take the 10 commandments, which of those did the Priest of the Levite break? None.

The raunchy comedian Daniel Tosh said, "if you need a wwjd bracelet to remind you to be a good person, take that thing and snap yourself in the eye."

Wolfgang wrote:To those who would mistakenly argue that certain Mosaic laws such as the tithing, dietary, festival, and Saturday Sabbath laws have been abolished, I sincerely ask them: how do you explain Galatians 5:18 which says: “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.”? If you interpret this verse as further proof that many Old Testament laws no longer need to be obeyed, doesn’t that idea conflict massively with MANY other major verses, especially two “gold standard” verses: ACTS 2:38: “Repent, and ….. be baptized ….. for the forgiveness of sins; and you shall receive ….. the Holy Spirit” and 1 JOHN 3:4: “…… sin is the violation of the law.”?

To get the vital Holy Spirit in the first place, which is essential for salvation, you need to repent of sinning, which 1 John 3:4 clearly defines as breaking the law or torah. THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN STOP BREAKING THE LAW IS TO OBEY THE LAW!!

Therefore the only interpretation possible of Galatians 5:18’s “not under the law” and similar verses such as “released from the law” and “freed from the law” is that Holy Spirit led Christians are no longer under the penalty (automatic death penalty for many sins) part of the law, but still are under the obedience part of the law, excluding primarily circumcision and the various sacrifices the apostles “went out of their way” to explain as abolished. Romans 8:2: “….. Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death” shows that death, the penalty part of the law, no longer applies to obedient, law (torah) abiding Christians. In some very concise, abbreviated verses the Apostle Paul does not go to the trouble of “spelling out” which part of the law has now been annulled, the penalty part, not the obedience part of the law.

Galatians 5:18 when turned around also reveals that all non-Christians ARE under the law, showing that much of the law was never really abolished.

Visit http://TithingHelps.us to become more knowledgeable about Galatians 5:18 and other pro-law verses that mathematically outnumber by more than 2 to 1 the supposedly, at first glance anti-law verses in the English translations of the New Testament. Matthew 7:23: ".....I never ever knew you, depart from Me, you who violate the torah" (exeGeses Companion Bible) is another extremely revealing verse showing that many Mosaic laws are still in force (the Greek for "violate the torah" is ANOMIA, which overwhelmingly refers to the Mosaic laws), and Matthew 13:41,42 tells us that God really will, someday after the coming Christian millenium, literally incinerate torah violators, in the probably nuclear inferno that will reshape the outer surface of the earth and evaporate the earth's oceans.

Again, I emphatically encourage you to visit http://TithingHelps.us to better understand the large number of verses that clearly support the continued observance of not all, but many Mosaic laws..

Wow, I hardly know where to start with this. I take great exceptions with your exegesis, your usage of the word repent, your soteriological position, and your view on tithing. I suppose you are here to tell us that you have repented of all your sins prior to receiving the Holy Spirit. Be interested to hear your definition of repent. My friend, I think your theology is full of MANY mistakes. Tithing has EVERYTHING to do with supporting the Levitical priesthood and operating the temple. I am certain that whatever you call 'tithing' has nothing to do with any such thing. It's just some tradition with no basis in teaching relating to the church the Body of Christ. You might as well start sacrficing sheep.

Sam 1995, I and other like minded Christians of course do not offer sacrifices because the apostles went out of their way to almost "spell out" the abolition of all animal and grain sacrifices in the book of Hebrews, and that circumcision has also been done away with, explained in Acts. So not all of the Mosaic laws have been annulled.

Digging, I think you need to have a better understanding of "fulfill" in Matthew 5:17 by knowing what the literal Greek really says.

Matthew 5:17: "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." --- New King James Version
The original Greek word for fulfill is pleroo, Strong's number 4137, which does not mean to replace, abolish, substitute, or perform for other Christians. It overwhelmingly means to "make replete, level up, be full, perfect, fully preach, complete, or to fill." Fulfill means to fill to the full in verse 17, to fill full, or fill fuller. Pleroo means basically "to add to," or "supplement." Joseph H. Thayer, famous Bible word expert, includes the following words in his definition of pleroo: "to furnish or supply liberally," "liberally supplied," "to render full," "to fill up to the top," "so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim," "to make complete in every particular," and "to render perfect."

The same pleroo word was used in Matthew 13:48 in which nets were filled up with fish!

Jesus added to, improved, and magnified the law. For example, in His famous Sermon on the Mount, He added to or refined (improved) the law at least eight times: 1) Matthew 5:22: refining further the law prohibiting murder, merely being angry with someone without a cause or seriously insulting someone is now a very serious sin, 2) 5:28: just looking at a woman lustfully is now equivalent to adultery, 3) 5:32: whoever marries a divorced woman now commits adultery (there may be one exception), 4) 5:34: never swear at all, 5) 5:39-42: if you are slapped on one cheek, let yourself be slapped on the other cheek and do not refuse to loan or give to others if they ask for a loan or help (there are obvious common sense exceptions since some people might argue that Jesus does not expect us to unnecessarily severely injure ourselves or damage or ruin ourselves financially giving to drug addicts, financial predators, etc.), 6) 5:44: instead of hating our enemies, we are now instructed to love, bless, pray for, and do good to our enemies, 7) 6:15: we must now forgive others instead of holding a permanent grudge, and 7:1: do not judge others unless you want to be judged by the same criteria.

The following reputable translations help show that Jesus DID NOT "fulfill" the law in a way that clearly no longer required us to obey the law. He simply made the law better, adding to it, and refined it further. We still need to diligently observe many Mosaic laws.

Matthew 5:17: "You folks should not infer from customary presumption or from established supposition that I came to loosen-down or demolish the Law (or: Torah) or the Prophets. I did not come to loosen-down or demolish, but to the contrary, to fulfill (or: fill up) and make full." --- Jonathan Mitchell New Testament.

Matthew 5:17: "Do not think that I have come to set aside the law and the prophets; I have not come to set them aside, but to bring them to perfection." --- Knox New Testament.

Matthew 5:17: "Do not for a moment suppose that I have come to abrogate the Law or the Prophets: I have not come to abrogate them but to give them their completion." --- Weymouth New Testament. Mainstream Christians misinterpret pleroo to mean that Jesus has discharged Christians from the obligation to continue closely obeying the Mosaic laws. For further study go to ucg.org/bsc/09/spiritoflaw.ht.

God the Father is referring to His Son, Jesus Christ in Isaiah 42:1-4,6,7,19-21. Isaiah 42:21: "Jehovah is delighted for His righteousness' sake; He WILL MAGNIFY the Law and make it honorable" --- Green's Literal Translation. Isaiah predicted that Jesus would MAGNIFY the law. No Old Testament prophet EVER even remotely hinted that Jesus would remove from each Christian the need to individually continue obeying the law. Other respected translations such as the John Nelson Darby Translation, A Conservative Version, English Jubilee 2000, New Heart English Bible, World English Bible, English Revised Version, American Standard Version with Strong's, Updated King James Version, American King James Version, KJV Pure Cambridge Edition, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, Julia Smith Translation, Noah Webster's KJV revision, Geneva Bible, Bishop's Bible, Coverdale's Translation, American Standard Version, Leeser Old Testament, Young's Literal Translation, Concordant Literal Version, and the Interlinear Hebrew Old Testament also use the word "magnify" in Isaiah 42:21.

Jlay, tithing of course is still fully in force. Jesus Himself commanded it, and He never specified that only the regular tithe to God was still valid, so the festival tithe and third year food tithe absolutely are still in force.

MATTHEW 23:23: "........ You SHOULD TITHE, yes, but do not neglect the more important things. --- New Living Translation
"........ You OUGHT TO TITHE but without forgetting about those more important matters." --- Common English Bible
LUKE 11:42: "........ You should be fair and kind to others and still GIVE A TENTH to God." --- Contemporary English Version
"........ You SHOULD TITHE,yes, but do not neglect the more important things." --- New Living Translation
"........ And you should also continue to do those other things--{LIKE GIVING ONE - TENTH}." --- Easy - to - Read Version

Well over an estimated 400 million human lives could have been saved from premature death by starvation during the last 1,500 years if Deuteronomy 26:12, involving the third year food tithe, had been obeyed worldwide. Probably at least another 15-40 million could have been saved from serious infections or death during the same period simply by obeying the Mosaic dietary laws.

I find it very hard to believe that there are no more comments on this hot topic. Therefore it seems that whoever controls this forum has decided to end the discussion of whether or not many Mosaic laws still need to be observed. Hopefully the moderator will change his mind and allow this educational discussion to continue.

Wolfgang wrote:I find it very hard to believe that there are no more comments on this hot topic. Therefore it seems that whoever controls this forum has decided to end the discussion of whether or not many Mosaic laws still need to be observed. Hopefully the moderator will change his mind and allow this educational discussion to continue.

Wolfgang, unless a moderator has locked the thread, this discussion is open to anyone who wants to post. I believe the issue is that there are already a bunch of threads discussing the same topic.

RickD wrote:

Wolfgang wrote:I find it very hard to believe that there are no more comments on this hot topic. Therefore it seems that whoever controls this forum has decided to end the discussion of whether or not many Mosaic laws still need to be observed. Hopefully the moderator will change his mind and allow this educational discussion to continue.

Wolfgang, unless a moderator has locked the thread, this discussion is open to anyone who wants to post. I believe the issue is that there are already a bunch of threads discussing the same topic.

Or perhaps engaging in this thread was a Mosaic law also done away with.

Sorry Wolf, couldn't help it.

Wolfgang wrote:Jlay, tithing of course is still fully in force. Jesus Himself commanded it, and He never specified that only the regular tithe to God was still valid, so the festival tithe and third year food tithe absolutely are still in force.

MATTHEW 23:23: "........ You SHOULD TITHE, yes, but do not neglect the more important things. --- New Living Translation
"........ You OUGHT TO TITHE but without forgetting about those more important matters." --- Common English Bible
LUKE 11:42: "........ You should be fair and kind to others and still GIVE A TENTH to God." --- Contemporary English Version
"........ You SHOULD TITHE,yes, but do not neglect the more important things." --- New Living Translation
"........ And you should also continue to do those other things--{LIKE GIVING ONE - TENTH}." --- Easy - to - Read Version

Well over an estimated 400 million human lives could have been saved from premature death by starvation during the last 1,500 years if Deuteronomy 26:12, involving the third year food tithe, had been obeyed worldwide. Probably at least another 15-40 million could have been saved from serious infections or death during the same period simply by obeying the Mosaic dietary laws.

Uh, of course, you are wrong. What is tithing, or what was tithed? A tenth given to who? If you answer those questions, you will see that first of all, your concept of tithing in not a bibical one, but a religious one, wrongly taught in the church today.
Your Exegesis also fails, as you insert yourself in the audience. Christ was speaking to Jews. Jews who still lived under the Levitical law, and the Temple structure. Tithing was to support the Temple and the Levitical order.
Hey if you are going to tithe, be consistent. (Deut. 12:32) "Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it: you shall not add to it nor take away from it."

Yet, here we are saying that certain things have been taken away. Huh? Contradiction? Is that where proper exegesis should lead us? Heavens no.
Consequence? (Deut. 27:26)

Giving is certainly a NT principle. Odd that Paul, who was hand picked by Christ as the Apostle to the Gentiles never once mentions tithing, but often mentions giving and charity.

Wolfgang wrote:
Digging, I think you need to have a better understanding of "fulfill" in Matthew 5:17 by knowing what the literal Greek really says.

Wolf, I think you need to have a better understanding of audience.

So not all of the Mosaic laws have been annulled.

I would go further. I would say that none of the Mosiac laws have been annulled. I would say that Israel, the Temple, the Levitical priesthood, etc. has been interupted. To have a tithe, you have to have a temple, and you have to have a working Levitical system.

Jesus certainly did not come to abolish the Law. He came preaching the KINGDOM and the promises to ISRAEL. "Go not unto the GENTILES." I suppose you would take Jesus at His word there as well? So, are you saying that this message (The SOTM) in Matthew 5-7 is for Gentiles today, when Jesus was clearly instructing His disciples to ONLY go to the lost sheep of Isreal? Interesting.

Be careful you who presume to teach. James 3:1
1 Timothy 1:7