Evidence for God from Science

Celt wrote:Thanks Sam. So many see hell fire and those condemed to it as a torture, so if God is one of love,etc....?
I understand wicked society and the perverted that live in it. But the majority of parents would do anything for a child, even die for them. It's those that i'm considering.

G-d is no different. He did everything for us, up to and including dying for us on the cross. What happens when the parent is doing all they can for the child, but the child rejects everything they do?

Also, as Rick said, Hell is not a place where G-d tortures people. It's a place where people are separated from G-d, so the pain comes from His ABSENCE, not His presence.

Celt wrote:Ok, If someone asks you,'If God is loving Compassionate, etc., then how could someone with those qualities turn around and then torment,torture his creations (children)' ?
I mean ok, they did wrong, spank them, then put them to bed (or death) in this case.
As a parent would you take a blow torch to your child for days on end to teach them a lesson ?
I ask this because it's two-fold. One ive heard this, or along these lines, before. How does one respond ? Two, in all honesty I'm trying to wrap my head around it as well. C'mon guy's help me out.

Really? You equate this to God taking a blow torch and getting some sort of sadistic pleasure?
The Bible never says torture.
One, this shows me you have a very low view of God and a very low view of sin.

Dear Celt,

With regards my personal beliefs on what hell is I've worked backwards from all the scriptures that speak of eternal life and for myself the bible seems extreemly clear on that matter. ONLY redeemed righteous believers receive eternal life as a great and beautiful gift from God.

For someone to be 'aware' of the eternal torment they would also need to have eternal life......which the scripture say is only for the redeemed.

So lets look again at Matt 13:41"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,42and will throw them into the furnace of fire ; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43"Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

If we want to read the weeping and gnashing of teeth as a real living action then would we not also have to believe that the faithful are going to be turned into to gasious burning balls of hydrogen?

Immortality is only for the believers, thus Hell is eternal everlasting death nothing more and that is quite enough I feel....to be lost forever.... is there any greater suffering than that?

Digging

Celt wrote:If we are made in God's image/likeness, i assume (hopefully not wrong) that means his attributes as well, such as love and compassion, even if they are water-downed shadows of the almighty, then could we/you ever torture your kids for years ? (Hell-fire) Even if they commited a crime, punishment yes, but something along the lines of torture ? How should we properly consider or view this ?

P.S. - I really hope i'm not sounding as if i'm trying to promote anything, or coming off as trying to be argumentative here. just keep in mind i'm a greenhorn to all this. and trying to learn, gain a better understanding to strenghten my faith in becoming a Christian.

Here you go Celt, please use the search button on the Forum and look up Hell - Torture to bring up a mass of threads on this very subject

For example - see the Quote and Link Below:

From this Thread

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... l&start=30

I am not going into any details here as they have been addressed on the Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins thread.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... inite+Sins

Kurieuo wrote: If it matters, I do not believe God purposefully designed a place of torture for those who reject Him. Rather, it is a place of necessity to contain those who do reject Him. Such are not tortured by God, but rather by their own consciousness and awareness to their everlasting situation. The source of all truth, good, peace, righteousness, light and what-have-you is withdrawn from those who reject Christ forever. They are left to a world of their own without such things.

B. W. wrote: Next, the Infinite punishment for finite sins’ case is based upon a false premise of what torment is. In many persons who hold this view, claim that it is God who does the tormenting and torture. This is a false premise wrought out by bad doctrine and not what the bible reveals. God is not the tormenter or the happy torturer inflicting torture - See below for what makes eternal punishment i.e. recompense:

First, Torment belongs to the person – it is their own torment that torments as the principle cites in Revelation 14:11. God is not doing any torture or tormenting. The person’s own conscience does that.

The argument used by annihilationist is not based on biblical fact. What it does reveal is a preponderance of basing new theology of annihilationism on human emotionalism to win arguments at any cost. Notice, it is they that accuse God of being a torturer (sadist as Pinnock stated), for even punishing.

Please note what Kurieuo stated and I stated on Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins thread as it mirrors the Orthodox scripture based position that defines the nature of eternal punishment as a consciousness awareness of their everlasting situation where the source of all truth, good, peace, righteousness, light, from God is withdrawn from those who reject Christ forever. They are left to a world of their own where Torment it is their own torment that torments as the principle in Revelation 14:11 reveals. God is not doing any torture or tormenting. The person’s own conscience is doing that.

Let’s look at what others concluded far more respectable than Kurieuo or I. Their conclusions are similar to what I have been repeatedly pointed out:

Quoted From this article linkA Kinder, Gentler Theology of Hell?

CONCLUSION

It has been the purpose of this essay to demonstrate by a survey of the doctrinal categories that the doctrine of annihilationism as taught by a few contemporary evangelicals is a significant part of a multifaceted compromise of a biblical systematic theology. I have also suggested that annihilationists often come to the Scriptures with cultural and theological preunderstandings that negate the historical-grammatical meaning of the passages. Carson is right in his observation:

“Despite the sincerity of their motives, one wonders more than a little to what extent the growing popularity of various forms of annihilationism and conditional immortality are a reflection of this age of pluralism. It is getting harder and harder to be faithful to the “hard” lines of Scripture. And in this way, evangelicalism itself may contribute to the gagging of God by silencing the severity of his warnings and by minimizing the awfulness of the punishment that justly awaits those untouched by his redeeming grace.46

46Carson, Gagging of God

Quoted From this article linkA Kinder, Gentler Theology of Hell?

There is a powerful moral revulsion against the traditional doctrine of the nature of hell. [As Pinnock said]

“ Everlasting torture is intolerable from a moral point of view because it pictures God acting like a bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz for his enemies whom he does not even allow to die. How can one love a God like that?”11

Is not Pinnock saying that people believe in what they enjoy, and since they do not enjoy the thought of eternal hell, they can dismiss it, and thus construct their own narrative, their own reality? With such cultural preunderstandings, it is impossible for one to interpret Scripture accurately.12

Some preunderstandings are theological. If one already has His mind made up about what God is like, what man is like, what sin and salvation are like, he may bring those preunderstandings to the passage of Scripture he is trying to understand. In other words, one’s larger theological system will probably impact his interpretation of an individual passage of Scripture. The purpose in the rest of this study, therefore, is to demonstrate that annihilationism is not an isolated deviation from orthodoxy, but is only a part of a larger theological breakdown. Annihilationists thus have not only departed from a biblical understanding of eschatology, but also from the doctrines of God, man, sin, and salvation.

11Pinnock, “The Conditional View,” in Four Views of Hell 149.

12See further, Larry D. Pettegrew, “Liberation Theology and Hermeneutical Preunderstandings,”
Bibliotheca Sacra 148/591 (July-September 1991):274-87.

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jlay wrote:

Celt wrote:Ok, If someone asks you,'If God is loving Compassionate, etc., then how could someone with those qualities turn around and then torment,torture his creations (children)' ?
I mean ok, they did wrong, spank them, then put them to bed (or death) in this case.
As a parent would you take a blow torch to your child for days on end to teach them a lesson ?
I ask this because it's two-fold. One ive heard this, or along these lines, before. How does one respond ? Two, in all honesty I'm trying to wrap my head around it as well. C'mon guy's help me out.

Really? You equate this to God taking a blow torch and getting some sort of sadistic pleasure?
The Bible never says torture.
One, this shows me you have a very low view of God and a very low view of sin.

Wow ! Did i say God was getting sadistic pleasure ???
torment- The infliction of torture, extreme pain or anguish.
Low view of God? How dare you. at the very first i admited this was all new to me. I'm trying to learn, to become a Christian, to have a better understanding and knowledge of the scriptures.
Thanks for your so very low un-christian like welcome and comment. Conclusion jump often ?

Thank you - B.W., Digging, Sam, Paul, RickD, cheez, i do appreciate it.

jlay wrote:

Celt wrote:Ok, If someone asks you,'If God is loving Compassionate, etc., then how could someone with those qualities turn around and then torment,torture his creations (children)' ?
I mean ok, they did wrong, spank them, then put them to bed (or death) in this case.
As a parent would you take a blow torch to your child for days on end to teach them a lesson ?
I ask this because it's two-fold. One ive heard this, or along these lines, before. How does one respond ? Two, in all honesty I'm trying to wrap my head around it as well. C'mon guy's help me out.

Really? You equate this to God taking a blow torch and getting some sort of sadistic pleasure?
The Bible never says torture.
One, this shows me you have a very low view of God and a very low view of sin.

Celt never mentioned a sadistic pleasure on God's part.
From an atheist's perspective, who would probably be the sort of person to ask the question "how can a loving and compassionate God kill?" then this is a very valid question which Christians should have a response against.
Instead of putting someone down, why not try to answer the question.

SB