Evidence for God from Science

Byblos wrote:

Woody wrote:Hello there,

Firstly I'm very sorry if such a question has been explored before, but as a theistic evolutionist I have recently been thinking about when exactly God deemed us distinct from the apes and classified us as ready to have a soul. Since evolution is such a gradual process it would seem strange that we are 'suddenly' ready for a soul - is it possible there was some divine intervention and we changed in characteristic? What about the Neanderthals, Homo Erectus and the other members of our species, some of which only died out around 10,000 years ago?

Any advice and guidance much appreciated.

According to Catholic belief (many of whom are theistic evolutionists), there are 3 types of souls: 1) a non-sentient soul such as that of plants, bacteria, etc. 2) a sentient non-rational soul such as that of animals, and 3) a sentient rational soul such as that of humans and which is said to be in the image of God.

Adam and Eve would be the first recipients of a sentient, rational soul. Perfectly compatible with scripture.

Byblos wrote:
According to Catholic belief (many of whom are theistic evolutionists), there are 3 types of souls: 1) a non-sentient soul such as that of plants, bacteria, etc. 2) a sentient non-rational soul such as that of animals, and 3) a sentient rational soul such as that of humans and which is said to be in the image of God.

Adam and Eve would be the first recipients of a sentient, rational soul. Perfectly compatible with scripture.

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:
According to Catholic belief (many of whom are theistic evolutionists), there are 3 types of souls: 1) a non-sentient soul such as that of plants, bacteria, etc. 2) a sentient non-rational soul such as that of animals, and 3) a sentient rational soul such as that of humans and which is said to be in the image of God.

Adam and Eve would be the first recipients of a sentient, rational soul. Perfectly compatible with scripture.

But what about an eternal spirit? Where, according to TE, did that come into play? Or is that what you're saying a "sentient rational soul" is? I just see a distinction between soul and spirit.

RickD wrote:And, if adam and eve were just 2 of many hominids that God decided to give a spirit to, then how does that reconcile with scripture that says eve came from Adam?
Genesis 2:23.

Byblos wrote:
Allegory. Eve coming from Adam emphasizes the familial and headship relationship God intended for the family unit. Note that I am most definitely NOT saying that Adam and Eve were allegorical, I believe in the real existence of an Adam and an Eve who were the first to be declared human by God.

PaulSacramento wrote:Why would God need to do that Rick?
I mean, why not create Eve just as Adam?

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:
Allegory. Eve coming from Adam emphasizes the familial and headship relationship God intended for the family unit. Note that I am most definitely NOT saying that Adam and Eve were allegorical, I believe in the real existence of an Adam and an Eve who were the first to be declared human by God.

Genesis 2:21-23:
21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22 The Lord God [a]fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. 23 The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones,
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called [c]Woman,
Because [d]she was taken out of [e]Man.”

Byblos, how do you see verses 21-23 as allegorical?

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Why would God need to do that Rick?
I mean, why not create Eve just as Adam?

I'm not sure what you're asking Paul. I didn't say God needed to do it that way. I'm just trying to see how Byblos understands the text here as an allegory.

It's a poetic language Rick, meant to convey a deeper truth, not a lesson in creation or procreation. Think of it this way, it is quite possible (and that is only speculation on my part mind you) that the chosen Eve may very well have formerly been a physical blood relative, most likely an offspring of the former being that is now Adam. So here is this first human, Adam, suddenly awake and distinctly aware of his surroundings, can process information, reason, communicate, and so on, and yet utterly raw so-to-speak and totally dependent on God. So God makes it known to him (in his sleep) that Eve is not just special because she was chosen as his wife and companion, no she is much more than that, she is flesh from his flesh and bone from his bone (literally physically). All the more reason why she needs to be protected, cared for, respected. Anyway, when I put my TE hat on that's pretty much the way I see things. As you know I'm not entirely sold on TE but I won't discount it as a possibility (much for the same reason I won't entirely discount YEC but it becomes a matter of degrees).

Byblos wrote:
Think of it this way, it is quite possible (and that is only speculation on my part mind you) that the chosen Eve may very well have formerly been a physical blood relative, most likely an offspring of the former being that is now Adam. So here is this first human, Adam, suddenly awake and distinctly aware of his surroundings, can process information, reason, communicate, and so on, and yet utterly raw so-to-speak and totally dependent on God. So God makes it known to him (in his sleep) that Eve is not just special because she was chosen as his wife and companion, no she is much more than that, she is flesh from his flesh and bone from his bone (literally physically).

18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper [o]suitable for him.”

19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the [p]sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the [q]sky, and to every beast of the field, but for [r]Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. 21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22 The Lord God [t]fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.

Byblos wrote:
As you know I'm not entirely sold on TE

I can see why, after that explanation.

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Why would God need to do that Rick?
I mean, why not create Eve just as Adam?

I'm not sure what you're asking Paul. I didn't say God needed to do it that way. I'm just trying to see how Byblos understands the text here as an allegory.

When God created all other mammals, he created them male and female so they can procreate, he created them at the same time we assume.
Why the difference with Adam?
Why not create eve like Adam, why use a part of Adam?
That it was written that way makes me think that there is a message here and it isn't about creation but about how man and woman are One.
Written to show that woman is from Man and Man gives of himself for woman.

Philip wrote:

It's a poetic language Rick, meant to convey a deeper truth, not a lesson in creation or procreation. Think of it this way, it is quite possible (and that is only speculation on my part mind you) that the chosen Eve may very well have formerly been a physical blood relative, most likely an offspring of the former being that is now Adam. So here is this first human, Adam, suddenly awake and distinctly aware of his surroundings, can process information, reason, communicate, and so on, and yet utterly raw so-to-speak and totally dependent on God. So God makes it known to him (in his sleep) that Eve is not just special because she was chosen as his wife and companion, no she is much more than that, she is flesh from his flesh and bone from his bone (literally physically). All the more reason why she needs to be protected, cared for, respected. Anyway, when I put my TE hat on that's pretty much the way I see things. As you know I'm not entirely sold on TE but I won't discount it as a possibility (much for the same reason I won't entirely discount YEC but it becomes a matter of degrees).

That's a nice, creative narrative, but it's not what Scripture says. And since when are we to read into Scripture more than it actually says, or through the lens of our personal world views? That is when we get into a dangerous areas of wrongful interpretation. There are enormous problems with evolution, easily and magically filled in by those asserting that God designed and guided the creation of life through some variation of it. And how else could one explain the Cambrian Explosion? But TE has much more to explain than by just saying God used evolution to create - it must also match up with the fossil record and be able to explain it. But, obviously, any problems with evolution can be claimed solvable by simply stating that God was guiding the process. But that's not science, and it sure doesn't accurately reflect how non-theistic evolutionists (which is the vast majority of them) insist things happened - as such evolutionists won't even acknowledge that evolution has extreme and inexplicable problems, to begin with.

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:
Think of it this way, it is quite possible (and that is only speculation on my part mind you) that the chosen Eve may very well have formerly been a physical blood relative, most likely an offspring of the former being that is now Adam. So here is this first human, Adam, suddenly awake and distinctly aware of his surroundings, can process information, reason, communicate, and so on, and yet utterly raw so-to-speak and totally dependent on God. So God makes it known to him (in his sleep) that Eve is not just special because she was chosen as his wife and companion, no she is much more than that, she is flesh from his flesh and bone from his bone (literally physically).

Byblos, if Eve is an off spring of Adam, then how do you explain Genesis 2:18:

18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper [o]suitable for him.”

How could Adam be alone if he had children from which Eve came?

RickD wrote:And, Genesis 2:19-22:

19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the [p]sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the [q]sky, and to every beast of the field, but for [r]Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. 21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22 The Lord God [t]fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.

There was not a helper suitable for him before Eve was created. That doesn't really make any sense if Adam already had children.

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:
As you know I'm not entirely sold on TE

I can see why, after that explanation.

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Why would God need to do that Rick?
I mean, why not create Eve just as Adam?

I'm not sure what you're asking Paul. I didn't say God needed to do it that way. I'm just trying to see how Byblos understands the text here as an allegory.

When God created all other mammals, he created them male and female so they can procreate, he created them at the same time we assume.
Why the difference with Adam?
Why not create eve like Adam, why use a part of Adam?
That it was written that way makes me think that there is a message here and it isn't about creation but about how man and woman are One.
Written to show that woman is from Man and Man gives of himself for woman.

Ok. So God created Eve from Adam's rib, and this shows us that woman comes from man. How are you arguing against an non-allegorical interpretation here? It sounds like you're arguing for an interpretation of Eve being literally formed from a part of Adam.