Evidence for God from Science

MAGSolo wrote:Getting back to my original post Id like to ask this. Lets just say hypothetically that God for sure does not exist. Would you rather know this for sure or would you prefer to just live with the belief that he did? Like say 100 years from now they were somehow able to prove that God didnt exist and it became a scientific fact, would you like to know this or just prefer to go on believing in him?

You still are incapable of comprehending. God's existence is not in question for it has been shown from reason. Only those who choose to ignore reason can state the opposite.

Byblos wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:Getting back to my original post Id like to ask this. Lets just say hypothetically that God for sure does not exist. Would you rather know this for sure or would you prefer to just live with the belief that he did? Like say 100 years from now they were somehow able to prove that God didnt exist and it became a scientific fact, would you like to know this or just prefer to go on believing in him?

You still are incapable of comprehending. God's existence is not in question for it has been shown from reason. Only those who choose to ignore reason can state the opposite.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the question I asked

MAGSolo wrote:Getting back to my original post Id like to ask this. Lets just say hypothetically that God for sure does not exist. Would you rather know this for sure or would you prefer to just live with the belief that he did? Like say 100 years from now they were somehow able to prove that God didnt exist and it became a scientific fact, would you like to know this or just prefer to go on believing in him?

Mag, what is your point? I'm going to answer your hypothetical question, so please make your point clear.

If somehow it was able to be proven to me that God doesn't exist by "scientific fact", then I wouldn't ignore the evidence. Now what's your point?

MAGSolo wrote:Getting back to my original post Id like to ask this. Lets just say hypothetically that God for sure does not exist. Would you rather know this for sure or would you prefer to just live with the belief that he did? Like say 100 years from now they were somehow able to prove that God didnt exist and it became a scientific fact, would you like to know this or just prefer to go on believing in him?

If it can be proven as FACT that God doesn't exist then God doesn't exist and yes, I would want to know the truth.
So would almost every rational believer I think.

RickD wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:Getting back to my original post Id like to ask this. Lets just say hypothetically that God for sure does not exist. Would you rather know this for sure or would you prefer to just live with the belief that he did? Like say 100 years from now they were somehow able to prove that God didnt exist and it became a scientific fact, would you like to know this or just prefer to go on believing in him?

Mag, what is your point? I'm going to answer your hypothetical question, so please make your point clear.

If somehow it was able to be proven to me that God doesn't exist by "scientific fact", then I wouldn't ignore the evidence. Now what's your point?

There is no point Rick because the question is a nonsensical one. It is tantamount to asking what if existence didn't exist.

MAGSolo wrote:Getting back to my original post Id like to ask this. Lets just say hypothetically that God for sure does not exist. Would you rather know this for sure or would you prefer to just live with the belief that he did? Like say 100 years from now they were somehow able to prove that God didnt exist and it became a scientific fact, would you like to know this or just prefer to go on believing in him?

Mag, I was 25 years an atheist. I was after the truth and still am. I did not want to believe something just because others do or what. If it was for sure that God does not exist I would stop believing as you put it.

But, I am almost certain now that God is.

1over137 wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:Getting back to my original post Id like to ask this. Lets just say hypothetically that God for sure does not exist. Would you rather know this for sure or would you prefer to just live with the belief that he did? Like say 100 years from now they were somehow able to prove that God didnt exist and it became a scientific fact, would you like to know this or just prefer to go on believing in him?

Mag, I was 25 years an atheist. I was after the truth and still am. I did not want to believe something just because others do or what. If it was for sure that God does not exist I would stop believing as you put it.

But, I am almost certain now that God is.

To go with what Hanna said, I'd like to add that for many years the biggest issue I myself had with believing in God was the problem of evil and the suffering of innocents.
I realized that the problem I had was not with God BUT with the God I CREATED, the God that I wanted to exist so that I could denounce Him.

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:Getting back to my original post Id like to ask this. Lets just say hypothetically that God for sure does not exist. Would you rather know this for sure or would you prefer to just live with the belief that he did? Like say 100 years from now they were somehow able to prove that God didnt exist and it became a scientific fact, would you like to know this or just prefer to go on believing in him?

Mag, what is your point? I'm going to answer your hypothetical question, so please make your point clear.

If somehow it was able to be proven to me that God doesn't exist by "scientific fact", then I wouldn't ignore the evidence. Now what's your point?

There is no point Rick because the question is a nonsensical one. It is tantamount to asking what if existence didn't exist.

Byblos, there must be a point, or he wouldn't have asked, right? Lets see if MAGSolo responds.

Mag, I genuinely don't think you're trying to be uncivil, or that you're trying to be nasty to anyone on this forum! But what I do see is that a lot of the time, you totally reject every argument or perspective that we bring up in discussion because you believe that you are right and we are not! You should be a bit more open to Christian viewpoints if you honestly are a "skeptic," and then you will definitely see a more positive response from everyone, because I think these discussions are ending in pointless arguments more often than not recently!

With that, I pray that through this forum, the people here and through revelation from God, you'll come into a loving relationship with Jesus! You can argue to the ends of the earth about God's existence, but it's impossible to deny the presence of God when you truly enter into it! God bless!

RickD wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:Getting back to my original post Id like to ask this. Lets just say hypothetically that God for sure does not exist. Would you rather know this for sure or would you prefer to just live with the belief that he did? Like say 100 years from now they were somehow able to prove that God didnt exist and it became a scientific fact, would you like to know this or just prefer to go on believing in him?

Mag, what is your point? I'm going to answer your hypothetical question, so please make your point clear.

If somehow it was able to be proven to me that God doesn't exist by "scientific fact", then I wouldn't ignore the evidence. Now what's your point?

My point is that it often seems like some Christians arent interested in debate because they just want to believe what they want to believe. Thats kind of the vibe I get when I read the rules to this forum. Its like you arent interested in a search for the truth, you are just happy to live in your comfortable little world and dont want it to be disturbed. Not saying thats the truth, but thats often what it seems like when Christians say they arent interested in debate.

Sam1995 wrote:Mag, I genuinely don't think you're trying to be uncivil, or that you're trying to be nasty to anyone on this forum! But what I do see is that a lot of the time, you totally reject every argument or perspective that we bring up in discussion because you believe that you are right and we are not! You should be a bit more open to Christian viewpoints if you honestly are a "skeptic," and then you will definitely see a more positive response from everyone, because I think these discussions are ending in pointless arguments more often than not recently!

With that, I pray that through this forum, the people here and through revelation from God, you'll come into a loving relationship with Jesus! You can argue to the ends of the earth about God's existence, but it's impossible to deny the presence of God when you truly enter into it! God bless!

I reject every argument or perspective because they honestly dont make sense to me. Take the very simple case of God and evil. Christians say that God is good, just, merciful, and all-powerful. I asked paul if he would consider a police officer a good person if he watched a woman being raped while doing nothing to stop it. He says no he wouldnt from what he knows of humans but that the criteria for a human being good is not the same for God. Why would Gods goodness be any different from human goodness? If it is good for god to watch a woman being raped and do nothing, why is it not good for a human to do the same thing? Whats the difference? So when you say I reject every argument or perspective given, then yes when it is what I consider to be a poor and unsupported argument or perspective then yes I do reject it. If anyone could provide a good argument for why God can watch something evil happen to a person and do nothing and thats considered good, but yet if a human with the power to stop evil choosing not to stop it then its not good. Can anyone explain that?

Lets take another example that i have brought up. God tells adam and eve not to eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. Satan tells Eve to do it and she does and compels adam to do it also. For this very first act of disobedience God curses Adam and Eve and the Earth. I ask is this a reasonable and good punishment for Adam and Eves very first act of disobedience. Everyone here says yes it is. I reject that argument or perspective because clearly its not a reasonable or good punishment. You explain this scenario using anybody but God and nobody would make say it was reasonable. If I say that I cursed my child and all his descendants because he ate some cookies before dinner when I told him not to, everyone would think I was nuts. You people take these scenarios and say that they are good and reasonable for the sole reason being that it involves god when if it was anyone else you would not say it was reasonable. If you ever notice how racist people argue they will do something very similar. Say a black person kills someone or rapes someone or does something awful then somehow that is a strike against all black people everywhere, its inherent in blacks to act that way and so on and so forth. Bring up a white person that did the exact same thing and that person is just a bad apple. A black person kills and that means that all black people are terrible people, a white person kills and its just one white person. Totally unreasonable logic that should obviously be rejected for the foolishness it is.

You guys do something very similar and its how you know that your arguments and perspectives are not reasonable. A cop sits and watches a woman being raped and does nothing and he is not a good person. God watches a woman be raped and does nothing and somehow God is still good even though he did the exact same thing that the cop did and was determined to not be a good person. When to entities can partake in the exact same behavior and be judged differently then that is unreasonable. You may say that God is not to be judged, but when you say that God is good that is exactly what you are doing. Saying that God is good is making a judgement on his character so you people judge God every time you say he is good.

So lets take two cases here. In the first case you have a black man that commits murder and a white man that commits murder in the exact same way. The black man does it and you condemn all black people for his deed. The white person does it and you say he is just one bad white person. I reject your argument and perspective. I think most reasonable people would say I would be right in this case.

Second case you say that a cop that watches a woman being raped while doing nothing is a bad person but God can watch a woman being raped and still be good. I reject that argument and perspective. In this case however you think I am unjustly rejecting your arguments and perspectives.

My problem with most of the arguments here is that you people are calling the actions of God good and reasonable when you would clearly say that they were unreasonable and not good if it was anyone else but God. You will justify anything that God does as good no matter how terrible we know it actually is. People have defended slavery, the mass murder or children and infants, and other atrocities all because God said it was okay. If a woman isnt a virgin on her wedding night then have her stoned to death. If a woman is raped and doesnt scream loud enough then she is to be stoned or if a woman is raped then her rapists shall be forced to marry her. God has 42 kids mauled to death by bears for mocking Elisha and calling him a bald head. God lets satan kill jobs wife and kids to make a point. Its all okay because its God. God can do literally anything he wants and it is good even if its really not. These are the arguments and perspectives that I have been rejecting.

I reject every argument or perspective because they honestly dont make sense to me.

That doesn't make them wrong dude.
I am sure that the abolishment of slavery didn't make any sense to many people.
I am sure forgiveness doesn't make any sense to many people.
I am sure evolution doesn't make any sense to many people.
I am sure that heliocentric view didn't make any sense to many people.
That didn't make those views and those things wrong.

Mag - there are 2 wills of God - his sovereign will and his permissible will. God wills everyone to do good but because we are granted freedom by God, some people will turn to evil - it goes against Gods will - but on some occasions he still permits it - and we trust, due to his character that he has moral justifiable reason for doing so. God has middle knowledge and hypothetical knowledge and knows history from beginning to end - we cannot even begin to fathom what consequences our actions will bring on a human level - but you need an infinite mind to comprehend all the possibilities. So although what does happen is evil and against God - it is permitted because the better good is brought out of it on a cosmic scale.

William Lane Craig uses the film "Sliding doors" as an example of this - where the main character misses the subway train by moments, because she was delayed by a girl with a doll on the stairs. Then the film shows what happens because she missed the train, and what would have happened if she caught that train. Her life deviates rapidly from each other and there is two totally different outcomes - ones that we cannot possibly predict. What for instance led to that girl being on the stairs with that doll, she could have been delayed, maybe her parents had an argument leading her to intervene with the main character at that precise time, but that could have happened differently as well. the point is there are an infinite possibilities and we cannot not even begin to predict the outcome of our actions through the course of time for the next hour, day, month, years in the future - but God can - he is omniscient, all knowing and can see the end from the beginning - which is why some evils are allowed and others are prevented. And you certainly know nothing of the evils that God is preventing - this world could be a million times worse.

It is important to note that God's omniscience is something that is debated.
Not whether God is but to what degree and how it works ( things we do not know).
Does God know ALL or does God know ALL that can be known at any given time? or only what God chooses to know?
Does God know all outcomes because they are "preordained" or does He know all possible outcomes of every possible decision? ( the decision has not been made yet but whatever the decision, God knows the outcome)?

PaulSacramento wrote:It is important to note that God's omniscience is something that is debated.
Not whether God is but to what degree and how it works ( things we do not know).
Does God know ALL or does God know ALL that can be known at any given time? or only what God chooses to know?
Does God know all outcomes because they are "preordained" or does He know all possible outcomes of every possible decision? ( the decision has not been made yet but whatever the decision, God knows the outcome)?

It is not preordained but rather full hypothetical knowledge I believe IMHO.