Evidence for God from Science

PaulS wrote:
Well, he keeps making mention of the incarnation but doesn't seen to address that Jesus( the Son of God) existed BEFORE the incarnation and if that is so, where did the "pre-incarnate" son of God come from?

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:John, was Jesus, was the Son of God created by God?

What does Luke 1:35 say of the subject?
Begotten means to come into existence. Deut 18:15-18, Isa 51:16, Acts 3:20-26 are key texts.
By Gods own word, YES I believe that Jesus was a uniquely begotten person. It was a miracle birth, not by sexual relation between God and Mary. I do not believe that God begat God, that's just silly talk to me.

I do believe in Gods own words John 1:14 "incarnation" that Jesus came to be.

Where did the pre-existing Jesus come from?
Was He created by God?

Paul, I would guess 1stjohn would meaninglessly assert(by his meaningless definition of begotten)that he was begotten. Maybe 1stjohn just thinks Jesus "poofed" into existence. Since 1stjohn doesn't believe Jesus of Nazareth preexisted as God before his incarnation, and he doesn't believe he was created, the only other"logical" option would be the "poofing" theory.

Maybe we can name it 1stjohnism. The belief that Jesus neither pre existed nor was created, he just "poofed" into Mary's womb.

Well, he keeps making mention of the incarnation but doesn't seen to address that Jesus( the Son of God) existed BEFORE the incarnation and if that is so, where did the "pre-incarnate" son of God come from?

RickD wrote:

PaulS wrote:
Well, he keeps making mention of the incarnation but doesn't seen to address that Jesus( the Son of God) existed BEFORE the incarnation and if that is so, where did the "pre-incarnate" son of God come from?

Make no mistake about it Paul. 1stjohn DOES address the Son of God's existence before the incarnation. In fact, 1stjohn goes completely out of his way(not to mention out of the way of the clear reading of scripture), to deny Christ's pre existence.

Paul I ask that you consider the "poofing" theory. It's no less logical than 1stjohn's assertion that both the Bible AND the Koran are holy books(even though they contradict each other).

1stjohn0666 wrote:I did address the incarnation, and the preexistence.
Here is what I stated "Jesus is the incarnation of the logos (word) of God."
The Nicene Council, both Arians and Athanasians believed in a literal preexisting "person" of Jesus. Thus the "hopping out of heaven and then being transformed into a helpless baby theory" works with them, not me. I like the fulfillment of prophecy working Psalm 2:7; Acts 13:33; Heb 1:5; Heb 5:5.
If this is true that Jesus existed in heaven before coming here, then I would say that part of your God was helpless. How many "parts" does God have in scripture? LOL

1stjohn0666 wrote: Scripture never presents a literal preexisting Jesus.
Has any one read the birth narratives in Matt an Luke? So an so begat so and so...etc. Begotten means to come into existence. How did all of us get here? Were we NOT begotten by our parents? Did we just "poof" here...LOL?

PaulSacramento wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote: Scripture never presents a literal preexisting Jesus.
Has any one read the birth narratives in Matt an Luke? So an so begat so and so...etc. Begotten means to come into existence. How did all of us get here? Were we NOT begotten by our parents? Did we just "poof" here...LOL?

So there was NO pre-existing Christ in any form?

1stjohn0666 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote: Scripture never presents a literal preexisting Jesus.
Has any one read the birth narratives in Matt an Luke? So an so begat so and so...etc. Begotten means to come into existence. How did all of us get here? Were we NOT begotten by our parents? Did we just "poof" here...LOL?

So there was NO pre-existing Christ in any form?

I believe that our Messiah was in the mind and plan of God "this is the preexisting" that I hold as true. I do not believe that Jesus was hanging out in heaven and then poofed into a womb to become a helpless, needy baby.

PaulSacramento wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote: Scripture never presents a literal preexisting Jesus.
Has any one read the birth narratives in Matt an Luke? So an so begat so and so...etc. Begotten means to come into existence. How did all of us get here? Were we NOT begotten by our parents? Did we just "poof" here...LOL?

So there was NO pre-existing Christ in any form?

I believe that our Messiah was in the mind and plan of God "this is the preexisting" that I hold as true. I do not believe that Jesus was hanging out in heaven and then poofed into a womb to become a helpless, needy baby.

So, there was no word of God or pre-existing Son of God in any form ( other than in God's mine) until Jesus was born?

1stjohn0666 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote: Scripture never presents a literal preexisting Jesus.
Has any one read the birth narratives in Matt an Luke? So an so begat so and so...etc. Begotten means to come into existence. How did all of us get here? Were we NOT begotten by our parents? Did we just "poof" here...LOL?

So there was NO pre-existing Christ in any form?

I believe that our Messiah was in the mind and plan of God "this is the preexisting" that I hold as true. I do not believe that Jesus was hanging out in heaven and then poofed into a womb to become a helpless, needy baby.

So, there was no word of God or pre-existing Son of God in any form ( other than in God's mine) until Jesus was born?

The Father who is the "only true God" John 17:3 as said by Jesus, put His words in the sons mouth just as was prophesied and fulfilled here are the scrips.
Deut 18:15-18; Isa 51:16; Acts 3:20-26.
I should give you a challenge, please find any lexicon on the planet Earth that defines the word "LOGOS" as a person. If you do please give the resource.
If you want you can even go to the Hebrew and see if the word "DAVAR" means a person. Websters "WORD" does not define "word" as a person. God the Fathers word always was. When Jesus was born that is when his existence began, and had the "words" of his Father who is Jesus' God put in his mouth.

Bible Study ToolsOur LibraryLexiconsNew Testament Greek LexiconNew Testament Greek Lexicon - New American StandardLogos
Logos

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 3056
Original Word Word Origin
logoß from (3004)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Logos 4:69,505
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
log'-os Noun Masculine
Definition

of speech
a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
what someone has said
a word
the sayings of God
decree, mandate or order
of the moral precepts given by God
Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
discourse
the act of speaking, speech
the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
a kind or style of speaking
a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
doctrine, teaching
anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
its use as respect to the MIND alone
reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
account, i.e. regard, consideration
account, i.e. reckoning, score
account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
reason would
reason, cause, ground
In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.

A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates achanging universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose inJohn 1.

1stjohn0666 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote: Scripture never presents a literal preexisting Jesus.
Has any one read the birth narratives in Matt an Luke? So an so begat so and so...etc. Begotten means to come into existence. How did all of us get here? Were we NOT begotten by our parents? Did we just "poof" here...LOL?

So there was NO pre-existing Christ in any form?

I believe that our Messiah was in the mind and plan of God "this is the preexisting" that I hold as true. I do not believe that Jesus was hanging out in heaven and then poofed into a womb to become a helpless, needy baby.

So, there was no word of God or pre-existing Son of God in any form ( other than in God's mine) until Jesus was born?

The Father who is the "only true God" John 17:3 as said by Jesus, put His words in the sons mouth just as was prophesied and fulfilled here are the scrips.
Deut 18:15-18; Isa 51:16; Acts 3:20-26.
I should give you a challenge, please find any lexicon on the planet Earth that defines the word "LOGOS" as a person. If you do please give the resource.
If you want you can even go to the Hebrew and see if the word "DAVAR" means a person. Websters "WORD" does not define "word" as a person. God the Fathers word always was. When Jesus was born that is when his existence began, and had the "words" of his Father who is Jesus' God put in his mouth.

RickD wrote:For those interested in learning, this link may shed some light on the reason John(the author of the biblical book of John) used the word Logos:http://www.ukapologetics.net/09/logos.htm

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:For those interested in learning, this link may shed some light on the reason John used the word Logos:http://www.ukapologetics.net/09/logos.htm

Personally I am just intrigued about his view that the Son of God never existed till he was Born as Jesus.
I find how incredibly at odds that is with Paul's writings and John's fascinating.

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:For those interested in learning, this link may shed some light on the reason John used the word Logos:http://www.ukapologetics.net/09/logos.htm

Personally I am just intrigued about his view that the Son of God never existed till he was Born as Jesus.
I find how incredibly at odds that is with Paul's writings and John's fascinating.

Paul, what else can 1stjohn say? He has no basis for his claims. Each time you ask him a question, he has to search to find something to fit into his unbiblical idea. Even when he issues a challenge that he believes will back up his belief, and I answer his challenge by the first lexicon I check, he will still deny Christ's deity. Instead of accepting the truth that is plainly before him, he has to keep going out of his way to invent answers to your questions.

John, it's about time that you just suck it up and admit that all evidence points to the deity of Christ. You have two choices. You can accept Christ's deity, or deny it and move on. You have been shown ample evidence to dismiss your claims. You remind me of a Flat Earth believer. When presented with overwhelming evidence of a spherical earth, they STILL hold to a flat earth.

Silvertusk wrote:

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:For those interested in learning, this link may shed some light on the reason John used the word Logos:http://www.ukapologetics.net/09/logos.htm

Personally I am just intrigued about his view that the Son of God never existed till he was Born as Jesus.
I find how incredibly at odds that is with Paul's writings and John's fascinating.

Paul, what else can 1stjohn say? He has no basis for his claims. Each time you ask him a question, he has to search to find something to fit into his unbiblical idea. Even when he issues a challenge that he believes will back up his belief, and I answer his challenge by the first lexicon I check, he will still deny Christ's deity. Instead of accepting the truth that is plainly before him, he has to keep going out of his way to invent answers to your questions.

John, it's about time that you just suck it up and admit that all evidence points to the deity of Christ. You have two choices. You can accept Christ's deity, or deny it and move on. You have been shown ample evidence to dismiss your claims. You remind me of a Flat Earth believer. When presented with overwhelming evidence of a spherical earth, they STILL hold to a flat earth.

The earth is not flat?????!!!!?!