Re: Keeping the sabbath...?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 4:34 am
Yes...I mean...no...what was the question?neo-x wrote:Is it alright on a Sabbath to bomb a Palestinian terrorist?
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Keeping the sabbath...?
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Re: Keeping the sabbath...?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 6:20 am
So the sabbath as it is kept now ( the date) is a matter of tradition.Gman wrote:Hi Paul... Since 45 B.C., prior to the birth of Christ, proves that there has never been any change in the weekly cycle from the time of Christ until now and Jews have been keeping it religiously for thousands of years. On top of that we have proof that in 69-70 AD, all Jews were driven from Palestine and dispersed into nations around the world. I can't see how billions of people could be wrong about today's calendar and what day of the week we are on..PaulSacramento wrote:It seems to me that the sabbath was that day of rest, that the Isrealites would work 6 days and rest on the seventh.
There is no indication of WHICH day it was and it seems that what we call "Saturday" became the sabbath out of tradition.
But let's say hypothetically we have the entire calendar wrong.. So do we just toss everything away now? And if we can't obey or agree on a calendar date, then what about all the other commandments? Since no one can obey the commandment on adultery, do we simply say that we don't have to obey it anymore? Since no one can obey the commandment on theft, do we simply toss the commandment on not to steal away?
As you can see, this belief brings chaos.... We already have enough chaos in the world today. Why add to the chaos?
Yes.. Messianics follow it in tow along with the Jews. In the creation chapter of Genesis 1, God gives His definition of a day. Verses like Leviticus 23:32 also explain how it starts in the evening and ends in the evening starting on a Friday night or after six days of work Exodus 20:8-11.PaulSacramento wrote:Am I correct to assume that Christians that follow the Sabbath, follow the Jewish tradition of the Sabbath too?
Does it start on Friday after sunset and end on Saturday after sunset?
Yes, we do our best to stop work... But obviously some drive a car, or prepare food, but not cook... The more orthodox Jews carry the commandment to it's fullest with not even turning on a light switch. Again, to me that would be more legalistic about it, but we do our best to obey and not burn ourselves out and give time to our families on the sabbath.PaulSacramento wrote:Is all work prohibited? ( I know a jewish family that cooks their meals before the sabbath and eats them during the sabbath so no one has to "labor" with cooking).
Are Sabbath years still kept too?
Re: Keeping the sabbath...?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 6:50 am
Good question!Are Sabbath years still kept too?
I would also assume that "law-keepers" don't bother to keep that one, nor that they bother keeping the part of the Sabbath law that says to execute Sabbath breakers. It's just typical cherry picking.
OTOH
- Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. (Col 2:16-17, ESV)
- 1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
To be very clear, then: when someone says we are under the Law, we should be vigorous in our opposition. That opposition should NOT, however, be such that we judge the person themselves for keeping the Law. In that regard, our concern should be only pastoral. The opposition should only be to the claim that other Christians are under the Law. We must recognize that Gman is under the Law, not because God has so placed him, but because he has so placed himself by not believing Christ has set him free. And so on one hand, we try to show him and all "law-keepers" (who are, in fact, law-breakers) that they are not under the Law and encourage them to embrace their liberty in Christ; but on the other hand, we recognize that when he keeps the Law, as Paul says here, he does it to the Lord, and that Jesus, not we, is His judge.
tl;dr -- do we REALLY have to have this thread again?
Re: Keeping the sabbath...?
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 3:43 am
I am on my way to belong to a church. It is coming to me naturally. There are my friends.Do Christians need to congregate weekly and 'keep' the sabbath?
Do I need to go to church weekly to make our Father happy?
Also to have Sunday as day of peace is coming to me naturally.
It is more about being natural feeling than keeping the law for the sake of keeping the law only.
P.S.: Also the church will not just accept anybody, but truly newborn person, that is Christian. Unlike many Catholics here in my country.
Re: Keeping the sabbath...?
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:09 am
Thanks.. Good question. That one is actually an easier one to answer. The Jubilee or sabbatical years are actually only performed in the land of Israel.. Let's see the record of the commandment in Leviticus 25.PaulSacramento wrote:
So the sabbath as it is kept now ( the date) is a matter of tradition.
Are Sabbath years still kept too?
Leviticus 25:1-12 The Lord said to Moses at Mount Sinai, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you enter the land I am going to give you, the land itself must observe a sabbath to the Lord.. 8 “‘Count off seven sabbath years—seven times seven years—so that the seven sabbath years amount to a period of forty-nine years. 9 Then have the trumpet sounded everywhere on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement sound the trumpet throughout your land. 10 Consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you; each of you is to return to your family property and to your own clan. 11 The fiftieth year shall be a jubilee for you; do not sow and do not reap what grows of itself or harvest the untended vines. 12 For it is a jubilee and is to be holy for you; eat only what is taken directly from the fields.
As we can clearly see that commandment was given to the believers while they were in the land....
So what about the Sabbath? Is that commandment for the believers only in the land of Israel too? The answer is NO.. We can clearly see that this commandment was given wherever you live. Also the 10 commandments given in Exodus 20 in honoring the sabbath was given BEFORE the Israelis entered the land.. And for the foreigner too.
Leviticus 23:3 “‘There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a sabbath to the LORD.
Exodus 20:8-11
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Furthermore the commandment to celebrate the sabbath was not given only to the Jews.. Christ clearly taught that "the sabbath was made for man" not just for an Israeli.. Mark 2:27. It is called "the sabbath of the Lord," but never "the sabbath of the Jews." Exodus 20:10.
Re: Keeping the sabbath...?
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:38 am
We have been over this before.. In the context of Colossians 2 we can clearly see in verse 8 that false teachers had engaged the Colossians to change G-d's laws into their own deceitful doctrine and theology.Jac3510 wrote: Good question!
I would also assume that "law-keepers" don't bother to keep that one, nor that they bother keeping the part of the Sabbath law that says to execute Sabbath breakers. It's just typical cherry picking.
OTOH
So in answer to the OP, no, we don't have to "keep" the Sabbath. Every day is the Sabbath for the believer. On this, as on all matters of the Law, Gman is just wrong. However, we who understand the place of the Law (or lackthereof) in the Christian life need to remember Paul's words in Rom 14
- Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. (Col 2:16-17, ESV)
- 1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.
Therefore we can clearly see that Paul was warning the Colossians of the false teachers that would judge them in Colossians 2:16-17. The Biblical festivals and Sabbaths were certainly not human tradition. They were ordained by G-d.
Therefore don't let a false teacher judge YOU when you observe a sabbath day or festival which is the future of what to come...
Actually the commandment is that we are to judge correctly. Also correction is not judgment nor condemnation. What does the Bible say about rebuking?Jac3510 wrote:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
John 7:24 "Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.”
1 Timothy 5:20 But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning.
2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.
Titus 2:15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.
Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind" does NOT equate to "Do whatever you like." Being convinced in your own mind is dealing with doctrinal and practical disputes. Where scripture give a clear word, personal opinion must give way.. But where the Word of G-d is subject to various possible interpretations, let each be persuaded in his own mind while at the same time having respect for one another.Jac3510 wrote:20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.[/list]
Paul never abrogated G-d's law... In fact he even teaches the dietary laws and other commandments in Acts 15...
Acts 15:20-21 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
Again.. I'm not judging anyone here Jac.. Just trying to clarify the situation..Jac3510 wrote:This shows us two things. Gman is required to keep the Sabbath, because he doubts his liberty in Christ. For him to work on Saturday would be a sin, for that would not be from faith, and whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. We, however, are not to judge Gman, for if he is keeping the law, at least he is doing it for the Lord. What we should do is try to strengthen his faith so that he can see his liberty in Christ. But if he refuses, it is between him and the Lord. In the meantime, as we are not to judge him, he is not to judge us. He is not to tell believers that they are obligated to keep the Law in any sense, that Christians ought to keep the Sabbath.
Again.. I'm not claiming that I'm keeping the law.. What I'm claiming however is that we as believers should be obedient to it.. Doesn't G-d's word ask us to be obedient?Jac3510 wrote:To be very clear, then: when someone says we are under the Law, we should be vigorous in our opposition. That opposition should NOT, however, be such that we judge the person themselves for keeping the Law. In that regard, our concern should be only pastoral. The opposition should only be to the claim that other Christians are under the Law. We must recognize that Gman is under the Law, not because God has so placed him, but because he has so placed himself by not believing Christ has set him free. And so on one hand, we try to show him and all "law-keepers" (who are, in fact, law-breakers) that they are not under the Law and encourage them to embrace their liberty in Christ; but on the other hand, we recognize that when he keeps the Law, as Paul says here, he does it to the Lord, and that Jesus, not we, is His judge.
tl;dr -- do we REALLY have to have this thread again?
1 Peter 1:13-17, “Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, ‘Be holy, for I am holy.’ And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear.”
Re: Keeping the sabbath...?
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:42 am
Blessings to all and happy shabbat.. 
Re: Keeping the sabbath...?
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:03 am
G, the 10 commandments are give to Israel in Exodus chapter 20. It is clear from the text that the commandments were given specifically to Israel, from what the text says here:
Exodus 20:1-2
Your ignoring the plain context just shows you are not reading the text as it is written. You are proof texting scripture to fit your theology. Anyone who reads Exodus 20 can clearly see that the commandments were given to those who had just come out of slavery.
Here's Exodus 20, so we can clearly see that the commandments were given specifically to Israel.
Anyone who thinks the text says that the commandments were given to all believers at all times, is clearly reading into the text, and ignoring what disagrees with their theology. Just read chapter 20, and see what it clearly says.
Exodus 20:1-2
And then chapter 20 goes on to list the commandments. In verses 1-2, the text clearly establishes that the commandments were given to those who God brought out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.20 Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of [a]slavery.
Your ignoring the plain context just shows you are not reading the text as it is written. You are proof texting scripture to fit your theology. Anyone who reads Exodus 20 can clearly see that the commandments were given to those who had just come out of slavery.
Here's Exodus 20, so we can clearly see that the commandments were given specifically to Israel.
Exodus 20:1-17
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Ten Commandments
20 Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of [a]slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself [c]an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not [d]leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.
8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who [e]stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
Anyone who thinks the text says that the commandments were given to all believers at all times, is clearly reading into the text, and ignoring what disagrees with their theology. Just read chapter 20, and see what it clearly says.
Re: Keeping the sabbath...?
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:09 am
I think we all admire your zeal and ardor but how can you claim that you are not keeping the Law, yet state one should obedient to the Law?Gman wrote:Again.. I'm not claiming that I'm keeping the law.. What I'm claiming however is that we as believers should be obedient to it.. Doesn't G-d's word ask us to be obedient?
For example the Sabbath Law states that carrying any burden or doing work on the Sabbath desecrates the Sabbath:
So to be obedient to the Law one must adhere to it to the strictest letter of the Law regarding the Sabbath. So this must apply for one’s own home city and hearth today. So you cannot say that you are not keeping the law and then turn around and say that we as believers should be obedient to it to the letter!Jer 17:21, 22, "This is what the LORD says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem. 22 Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your ancestors." NIV
Neh 13:15-17, "In those days I saw people in Judah treading winepresses on the Sabbath and bringing in grain and loading it on donkeys, together with wine, grapes, figs and all other kinds of loads. And they were bringing all this into Jerusalem on the Sabbath. Therefore I warned them against selling food on that day. 16 People from Tyre who lived in Jerusalem were bringing in fish and all kinds of merchandise and selling them in Jerusalem on the Sabbath to the people of Judah. 17 I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, "What is this wicked thing you are doing--desecrating the Sabbath day?" NIV
Isaiah 56:2, "Blessed is the one who does this-- the person who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it, and keeps their hands from doing any evil." NIV
Let us learn from Jesus what he usually did on the Sabbath? Think he’d break it?
Look Gman, we are not to carry any burden on the Sabbath and the man healed most certainly was carrying his burden crippledness unable to walk every Sabbath and by this burden the man broke the Sabbath. So Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, worked on the Sabbath to undo the burdened load the man carried. The man got up and carried his mat on the Sabbath! Oh how disobedient he was to the Law!John 5:6-18, "When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, "Do you want to get well?" 7 "Sir," the invalid replied, "I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me." 8 Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk." 9 At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked. The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, 10 and so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed, "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat."
11 But he replied, "The man who made me well said to me, 'Pick up your mat and walk.'" 12 So they asked him, "Who is this fellow who told you to pick it up and walk?"
13 The man who was healed had no idea who it was, for Jesus had slipped away into the crowd that was there. 14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."
15 The man went away and told the Jewish leaders that it was Jesus who had made him well. 16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working." 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God." NIV
With all respect, Gman, most folks reading what you write account to you the words of the Pharisees here – “look – he is carrying his mat – he does not obey the Sabbath Law – how dare he!”
Yet, Jesus relieved the man of his burden and was accused of breaking God’s Law. So what burden do you hold?
We are to walk like Christ, being daily transformed into the Character of Christ Jesus and doing his will/works and that involves what He said here:
Isaiah 61:3, 4 continues the quote of verses Jesus is citing from:Luke 4:1719, And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written: 18 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE HAS ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR; HE HAS SENT ME TO HEAL THE BROKENHEARTED, TO PROCLAIM LIBERTY TO THE CAPTIVES AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET AT LIBERTY THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED; 19 TO PROCLAIM THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD." 20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. NKJV
So, we are to work on the Sabbath doing what the Lord wills – that is true obedience. One last thing, after the Resurrection and Pentecost, we entered the Lord’s Sabbath 24/7 every day and night of the week. It is we who are called to carry on the work of removing people’s burdens.He wants me to help those in Zion who are filled with sorrow. I will put beautiful crowns on their heads in place of ashes. I will anoint them with oil to give them gladness instead of sorrow. I will give them a spirit of praise in place of a spirit of sadness. They will be like oak trees that are strong and straight. The LORD himself will plant them in the land. That will show how glorious he is. 4 They will rebuild the places that were destroyed long ago. They will repair the buildings that have been broken down for many years. They will make the destroyed cities like new again. They have been broken down for a very long time. Isaiah 61:3, 4 from NIrV
That is the true obedience Peter is speaking of in 1 Peter 1:13-17 -"Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, ‘Be holy, for I am holy.’ And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear."
And of this obedience John explains in writing in 1 John 2:6…
So you see, with all kindness/respect, it is not about Law Gman – it is about the life transforming work of Christ Jesus within our hearts and in our lives given as a gift of grace. We are to what – rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ, not law.
We are obedient to that and as believers we daily learn to walk as he and shine as he midst a dark twisted broken world that hates such change from its warped ways. We are to relieve others of the burdens they carry every day, 24/7, a week as we have entered the Sabbath rest era and cease from our own works to learn of Him how to do as He midst this broken world.
So please take note, with the kindest and gentlest regards, Gman that you are coming across as a modern day Pharisee about the law, yet, the intent of the law you neglect.
I demonstrated here that the intent of the Law was simply our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, not bring us into more modern day Phariseeism. Jesus brought the intent of the Sabbath law to the crippled man, himself, and only He can undo all our burdens we carry. Let us be found entering that same rest.
Yes, the Law is written in our hearts and we learn right from wrong in order to guide to Christ Jesus so we learn of him by taking his easy yoke upon us and side by side with Christ we walk. You on the other hand seem to be promoting walking side by side with the Yoke of Law and not of Christ.
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Re: Keeping the sabbath...?
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:42 pm
No... The point I was making about Exodus 20 was that it was given before they had any land... Again, the commandment to celebrate the sabbath was not given only to the Jews.. Christ clearly taught that "the sabbath was made for man" not just for an Israeli.. Mark 2:27. It is called "the sabbath of the Lord," but never "the sabbath of the Jews." Exodus 20:10.RickD wrote:G, the 10 commandments are give to Israel in Exodus chapter 20. It is clear from the text that the commandments were given specifically to Israel, from what the text says here:
Exodus 20:1-2 and then chapter 20 goes on to list the commandments. In verses 1-2, the text clearly establishes that the commandments were given to those who God brought out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
Your ignoring the plain context just shows you are not reading the text as it is written. You are proof texting scripture to fit your theology. Anyone who reads Exodus 20 can clearly see that the commandments were given to those who had just come out of slavery.
RickD wrote:Here's Exodus 20, so we can clearly see that the commandments were given specifically to Israel.
Exodus 20:1-17
20 Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of [a]slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself [c]an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not [d]leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.
8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who [e]stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
Anyone who thinks the text says that the commandments were given to all believers at all times, is clearly reading into the text, and ignoring what disagrees with their theology. Just read chapter 20, and see what it clearly says.
Rick.. Seriously are you offended about these commandments? You shall not steal? You shall not commit adultery? You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor? You shall not murder? The question isn't who these are directed to, only if we think they have value in our lives.. All of them.
Again, I have to ask, where is this separate covenant given just to the gentiles? Just show me from scripture..
Re: Keeping the sabbath...?
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 8:15 pm
B. W. wrote:
I think we all admire your zeal and ardor but how can you claim that you are not keeping the Law, yet state one should obedient to the Law?
Yes.. I do... Let me ask you a question now Bryan. Do you obey all the laws in our country? If not, do you still think we should be obedient to them?
First of all, we are not in Jerusalem... Second I don't have a donkey, loading it with wine, grapes, figs and all other kinds of loads. So no, I can't see how someone could defile this... However, I like this commandment. What it tells me is that not to over work myself, nor animals on a sabbath day.. So even though I don't live in Jerusalem or have a donkey, I think the idea here is not to overburden ourselves with work.B. W. wrote: For example the Sabbath Law states that carrying any burden or doing work on the Sabbath desecrates the Sabbath:
Jer 17:21, 22, "This is what the LORD says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem. 22 Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your ancestors." NIV
Neh 13:15-17, "In those days I saw people in Judah treading winepresses on the Sabbath and bringing in grain and loading it on donkeys, together with wine, grapes, figs and all other kinds of loads. And they were bringing all this into Jerusalem on the Sabbath. Therefore I warned them against selling food on that day. 16 People from Tyre who lived in Jerusalem were bringing in fish and all kinds of merchandise and selling them in Jerusalem on the Sabbath to the people of Judah. 17 I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, "What is this wicked thing you are doing--desecrating the Sabbath day?" NIV
Isaiah 56:2, "Blessed is the one who does this-- the person who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it, and keeps their hands from doing any evil." NIV
What a beautiful commandment.. Thanks for sharing this.
B. W. wrote:So to be obedient to the Law one must adhere to it to the strictest letter of the Law regarding the Sabbath. So this must apply for one’s own home city and hearth today. So you cannot say that you are not keeping the law and then turn around and say that we as believers should be obedient to it to the letter!
What do you mean by the strictest letter of the Law regarding the Sabbath? So you don't think we should help people on the sabbath? Why did Christ heal on the sabbath? Mark 3:1-6.
Again.. There is no doubt that people were changing G-d's commandments into legalism. No question... But the commandment itself is most certainly not legalistic.. What does the the Psalms say about G-d's commandments? Are they not freedom?B. W. wrote:Let us learn from Jesus what he usually did on the Sabbath? Think he’d break it?
John 5:6-18, "When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, "Do you want to get well?" 7 "Sir," the invalid replied, "I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me." 8 Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk." 9 At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked. The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, 10 and so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed, "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat."
11 But he replied, "The man who made me well said to me, 'Pick up your mat and walk.'" 12 So they asked him, "Who is this fellow who told you to pick it up and walk?"
13 The man who was healed had no idea who it was, for Jesus had slipped away into the crowd that was there. 14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."
15 The man went away and told the Jewish leaders that it was Jesus who had made him well. 16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working." 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God." NIV
Psalm 119:44-45 I will always obey your law, for ever and ever. 45 I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts.
B. W. wrote:Look Gman, we are not to carry any burden on the Sabbath and the man healed most certainly was carrying his burden crippledness unable to walk every Sabbath and by this burden the man broke the Sabbath. So Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, worked on the Sabbath to undo the burdened load the man carried. The man got up and carried his mat on the Sabbath! Oh how disobedient he was to the Law!
Again... I have no clue how you can equate G-d's laws as bondage.. I have no idea where you are getting this.. They are most certainly not bondage.. Of course people will take G-d's commandments and TURN them into legalistic bondage, but they are not bondage themselves.. In fact anyone can turn any law into bondage, not only G-d's commandments. Again what does 1 Timothy 1:8 say about using G-d's commandments appropriately?
1 Timothy 1:8 We know that the Torah is good, provided one uses it in the way the Torah itself intends.
Christ and the apostles never abrogated nor canceled out G-d's beautiful commandments.. You can not prove any of that using the Bible.
Well... I'm sorry. If you think I'm a pharisee now.. Unfortunately I have no clue how to express that taking a day off is good for you.. And your spiritual walk with G-d and man..B. W. wrote:With all respect, Gman, most folks reading what you write account to you the words of the Pharisees here – “look – he is carrying his mat – he does not obey the Sabbath Law – how dare he!”
Yet, Jesus relieved the man of his burden and was accused of breaking God’s Law. So what burden do you hold?
We are to walk like Christ, being daily transformed into the Character of Christ Jesus and doing his will/works and that involves what He said here:
Amen.. And he also said the following as well..B. W. wrote:Luke 4:1719, And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written: 18 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE HAS ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR; HE HAS SENT ME TO HEAL THE BROKENHEARTED, TO PROCLAIM LIBERTY TO THE CAPTIVES AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET AT LIBERTY THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED; 19 TO PROCLAIM THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD." 20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. NKJV
Matthew 5:17-19, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
Matthew 5:48, “Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”
Again.. I don't see G-d's commandments as legalistic bondage anymore.. I think they are beautiful commandments. And they are FREEDOM.. Just like the Bible says..B. W. wrote:Isaiah 61:3, 4 continues the quote of verses Jesus is citing from:
So, we are to work on the Sabbath doing what the Lord wills – that is true obedience. One last thing, after the Resurrection and Pentecost, we entered the Lord’s Sabbath 24/7 every day and night of the week. It is we who are called to carry on the work of removing people’s burdens.He wants me to help those in Zion who are filled with sorrow. I will put beautiful crowns on their heads in place of ashes. I will anoint them with oil to give them gladness instead of sorrow. I will give them a spirit of praise in place of a spirit of sadness. They will be like oak trees that are strong and straight. The LORD himself will plant them in the land. That will show how glorious he is. 4 They will rebuild the places that were destroyed long ago. They will repair the buildings that have been broken down for many years. They will make the destroyed cities like new again. They have been broken down for a very long time. Isaiah 61:3, 4 from NIrV
That is the true obedience Peter is speaking of in 1 Peter 1:13-17 -"Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, ‘Be holy, for I am holy.’ And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear."
And of this obedience John explains in writing in 1 John 2:6…
B. W. wrote:[So you see, with all kindness/respect, it is not about Law Gman – it is about the life transforming work of Christ Jesus within our hearts and in our lives given as a gift of grace. We are to what – rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ, not law.
We are obedient to that and as believers we daily learn to walk as he and shine as he midst a dark twisted broken world that hates such change from its warped ways. We are to relieve others of the burdens they carry every day, 24/7, a week as we have entered the Sabbath rest era and cease from our own works to learn of Him how to do as He midst this broken world.
So please take note, with the kindest and gentlest regards, Gman that you are coming across as a modern day Pharisee about the law, yet, the intent of the law you neglect.
I demonstrated here that the intent of the Law was simply our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, not bring us into more modern day Phariseeism. Jesus brought the intent of the Sabbath law to the crippled man, himself, and only He can undo all our burdens we carry. Let us be found entering that same rest.
Yes, the Law is written in our hearts and we learn right from wrong in order to guide to Christ Jesus so we learn of him by taking his easy yoke upon us and side by side with Christ we walk. You on the other hand seem to be promoting walking side by side with the Yoke of Law and not of Christ.
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Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple.
Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Psalm 19:7-11 The law of the Lord is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple. 8 The precepts of the Lord are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the Lord are radiant, giving light to the eyes. 9 The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever. The decrees of the Lord are firm, and all of them are righteous. 10 They are more precious than gold, than much pure gold; they are sweeter than honey, than honey from the honeycomb. 11 By them your servant is warned; in keeping them there is great reward.
Psalm 119:44-45 I will always obey your law, for ever and ever. 45 I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts.
Psalm 119:142 Your righteousness is everlasting and your law is true.
Jeremiah 2:8 The priests did not ask, ‘Where is the Lord?’ Those who deal with the law did not know me; the leaders rebelled against me. The prophets prophesied by Baal, following worthless idols.
Re: Keeping the sabbath...?
Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 8:03 am
B. W. wrote:John 5:6-18, "When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, "Do you want to get well?" 7 "Sir," the invalid replied, "I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me." 8 Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk." 9 At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked. The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, 10 and so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed, "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat."
11 But he replied, "The man who made me well said to me, 'Pick up your mat and walk.'" 12 So they asked him, "Who is this fellow who told you to pick it up and walk?"
13 The man who was healed had no idea who it was, for Jesus had slipped away into the crowd that was there. 14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."
I would also like to add something about "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat". The Torah, or G-d's commandments say NOTHING about such things... It talks about carrying heavy loads and such, but nothing about mats.. So where did these Jewish leaders get this wacky idea? That's right, the Jewish customs such as the Talmud or the Jewish Halakhah filled with rules and practices that affect every aspect of life to the extremes.
This is actually what Christ was correcting.. Man's traditions.. Not G-d's Holy words themselves.. Adding or subtracting to G-d's laws is a CLEAR violation of Deuteronomy 4:2...
Deuteronomy 4:2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.
Re: Keeping the sabbath...?
Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 7:17 am
Gman wrote:B. W. wrote:I think we all admire your zeal and ardor but how can you claim that you are not keeping the Law, yet state one should obedient to the Law?
Yes.. I do... Let me ask you a question now Bryan. Do you obey all the laws in our country? If not, do you still think we should be obedient to them?
The laws of this country are in constant change. There are new Govt Regulations that come out daily that seek to fundamentally transform America into a collectivist slave utopia. I do not know all the new Regs as I cannot keep up other than pay taxes, and die impoverished.
In Portland, during the May Day demonstrations – the collectivist folks were dancing around a golden calf, free speech is abused, politicians lie and deceive. Four dead in Benghazi and a cover-up looms and you have the gall to ask me if I obey the laws of this land that slaughter the unborn, glorify the destruction of the God’s institution of marriage and exaltation of homosexuality as a pure as the driven snow lifestyle – where rights of Christians are forbidden in so many places?
Best I can do is to live a quiet life, pay taxes, and live according to the Holy Spirit who resides in me, teaching me to abide by the law of God written in my heart’s conscience and teach others to live accordingly. Do I always abide by the traffic laws, most of the time, yes. But of the rest of the new Regulations and abuse of power this Govt entity creates – I can’t keep up and neither do I support the slaughter of the unborn, support the Govt stripping bibles from our military personal, support progressive tax system (Joseph used a flat tax system), support the hate toward conservative and Christians, support a education system that brainwashes our youth to be good collectivist slaves to Govt. NO I do not support that. Do you?
Gman wrote:First of all, we are not in Jerusalem... Second I don't have a donkey, loading it with wine, grapes, figs and all other kinds of loads. So no, I can't see how someone could defile this... However, I like this commandment. What it tells me is that not to over work myself, nor animals on a Sabbath day.. So even though I don't live in Jerusalem or have a donkey, I think the idea here is not to overburden ourselves with work.B. W. wrote:For example the Sabbath Law states that carrying any burden or doing work on the Sabbath desecrates the Sabbath:
Jer 17:21, 22, "This is what the LORD says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem. 22 Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your ancestors." NIV
Isaiah 56:2, "Blessed is the one who does this-- the person who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it, and keeps their hands from doing any evil." NIV
What a beautiful commandment.. Thanks for sharing this.
You can’t pick and choose – carrying any burden on the Sabbath is a violation of the law as well as selling anything too. This means more than just resting from work – which most people do on Saturn’s day – maybe no donkey but a good vehicle is driven even after Sundown on Frigg Day services! How about yard work and picking up sticks on Saturn’s day? Not permitted by law yet people all – violate.
Thank God for his Grace – we need it 24/7 days a year every year we live. Do you agree with this statement?
The law has been written in our hearts – the letter of the law pointed to Christ Jesus and when used that way, it is lawful and good. When it does not – it is legalism and must be followed to be righteous in God’s sight.Gman wrote:Again.. I don't see G-d's commandments as legalistic bondage anymore.. I think they are beautiful commandments. And they are FREEDOM.. Just like the Bible says..B. W. wrote: We are obedient to that and as believers we daily learn to walk as he and shine as he midst a dark twisted broken world that hates such change from its warped ways. We are to relieve others of the burdens they carry every day, 24/7, a week as we have entered the Sabbath rest era and cease from our own works to learn of Him how to do as He midst this broken world.
So please take note, with the kindest and gentlest regards, Gman that you are coming across as a modern day Pharisee about the law, yet, the intent of the law you neglect.
I demonstrated here that the intent of the Law was simply our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, not bring us into more modern day Phariseeism. Jesus brought the intent of the Sabbath law to the crippled man, himself, and only He can undo all our burdens we carry. Let us be found entering that same rest.
Yes, the Law is written in our hearts and we learn right from wrong in order to guide to Christ Jesus so we learn of him by taking his easy yoke upon us and side by side with Christ we walk. You on the other hand seem to be promoting walking side by side with the Yoke of Law and not of Christ.[/b]
Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple.
Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Psalm 19:7-11 The law of the Lord is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple. 8 The precepts of the Lord are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the Lord are radiant, giving light to the eyes. 9 The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever. The decrees of the Lord are firm, and all of them are righteous. 10 They are more precious than gold, than much pure gold; they are sweeter than honey, than honey from the honeycomb. 11 By them your servant is warned; in keeping them there is great reward.
Psalm 119:44-45 I will always obey your law, for ever and ever. 45 I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts.
Psalm 119:142 Your righteousness is everlasting and your law is true.
Jeremiah 2:8 The priests did not ask, ‘Where is the Lord?’ Those who deal with the law did not know me; the leaders rebelled against me. The prophets prophesied by Baal, following worthless idols.
How are you righteous in God’s sight Gman? Following the letter of Law or Christ Jesus?
Lastly, Gman, please note, that I said that you appear to be coming across as a Pharisee not that you were:
You are coming across that way to many of the readers here and you need to be aware of that. Avoid pride...So please take note, with the kindest and gentlest regards, Gman that you are coming across as a modern day Pharisee about the law, yet, the intent of the law you neglect.
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Re: Keeping the sabbath...?
Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 9:02 am
I think that there must be a mutual respect.
Those that are convinced that by observing the Sabbath, they are honoring God, their view must be respected.
On the flip side, those who are convinced that the Sabbath is NOT needed because Christ is our Sabbath, must also be respected.
We truly need to heed Paul's words in this matter, the words in which he addresses the Sabbath and special days directly:
One man may see one day as special and another as all the same, let them a follow their conscience ( paraphrasing).
We should respect our opposing views that BOTH Honor God and Christ.
Those that are convinced that by observing the Sabbath, they are honoring God, their view must be respected.
On the flip side, those who are convinced that the Sabbath is NOT needed because Christ is our Sabbath, must also be respected.
We truly need to heed Paul's words in this matter, the words in which he addresses the Sabbath and special days directly:
One man may see one day as special and another as all the same, let them a follow their conscience ( paraphrasing).
We should respect our opposing views that BOTH Honor God and Christ.
Re: Keeping the sabbath...?
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:07 pm
Of course no christian would support abortion or the sexual sins that the government allows. But you have declared that you DO obey the laws given by our country.. Therefore you DO agree with me the importance of obeying laws. Otherwise we would have anarchy. It's the same thing with obeying G-d's commandments.. Either we obey it or we don't.B. W. wrote: The laws of this country are in constant change. There are new Govt Regulations that come out daily that seek to fundamentally transform America into a collectivist slave utopia. I do not know all the new Regs as I cannot keep up other than pay taxes, and die impoverished.
In Portland, during the May Day demonstrations – the collectivist folks were dancing around a golden calf, free speech is abused, politicians lie and deceive. Four dead in Benghazi and a cover-up looms and you have the gall to ask me if I obey the laws of this land that slaughter the unborn, glorify the destruction of the God’s institution of marriage and exaltation of homosexuality as a pure as the driven snow lifestyle – where rights of Christians are forbidden in so many places?
Best I can do is to live a quiet life, pay taxes, and live according to the Holy Spirit who resides in me, teaching me to abide by the law of God written in my heart’s conscience and teach others to live accordingly. Do I always abide by the traffic laws, most of the time, yes. But of the rest of the new Regulations and abuse of power this Govt entity creates – I can’t keep up and neither do I support the slaughter of the unborn, support the Govt stripping bibles from our military personal, support progressive tax system (Joseph used a flat tax system), support the hate toward conservative and Christians, support a education system that brainwashes our youth to be good collectivist slaves to Govt. NO I do not support that. Do you?
I would argue that you are actually the one picking and choosing.. You would agree with me that sexual sins are forbidden in the Bible, but when it comes to the covenants such as the sabbath and other Mosaic laws, then you pull away. So I believe that you are picking and choosing. Not me..B. W. wrote:You can’t pick and choose – carrying any burden on the Sabbath is a violation of the law as well as selling anything too.
The word used for 'gathering' sticks (mekoshesh) is only used here. So this was probably hard work and took some time. And they were probably doing this to make fire, another long tedious process. ..B. W. wrote:This means more than just resting from work – which most people do on Saturn’s day – maybe no donkey but a good vehicle is driven even after Sundown on Frigg Day services! How about yard work and picking up sticks on Saturn’s day? Not permitted by law yet people all – violate.
God had already shown mercy once about this issue (working on the Sabbath), at the very beginning of that period even before this stick-gathering event happened..
Exodus 16:25-30 “Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the Lord. You will not find any of it on the ground today. 26 Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.”
27 Nevertheless, some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. 28 Then the Lord said to Moses, “How long will you refuse to keep my commands and my instructions? 29 Bear in mind that the Lord has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where they are on the seventh day; no one is to go out.” 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.
So no.. Your statement is incorrect that every violation of G-d's commandments was death. It usually depended on the situation or circumstance and judgement of the elders.
Of course I thank G-d for grace.. We would be toast without it.. It's just that I believe we need to see it in light of the covenants.B. W. wrote:Thank God for his Grace – we need it 24/7 days a year every year we live. Do you agree with this statement?
Yes.. We have been over this many times.. The only way a man is righteous is through the eyes of Jesus Christ alone. We know that we will NEVER be justified by our works. However my claim is that we still do our best to follow G-d's commandments.. Not to attain righteousness, but out of the obedience that comes from faith. As we can clearly see in Romans 9, the Jews did not attain righteousness.. Why? Because they we trying to attain righteousness by following G-d's laws. In other words, they changed G-d's commandments into legalism even though G-d's commandments are NOT legalism themselves. It's how they viewed His commandments.B. W. wrote: The law has been written in our hearts – the letter of the law pointed to Christ Jesus and when used that way, it is lawful and good. When it does not – it is legalism and must be followed to be righteous in God’s sight.
How are you righteous in God’s sight Gman? Following the letter of Law or Christ Jesus?
Romans 9:30-33 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
Actually I don't know if calling me a pharisee is really that bad since Paul also called himself a pharisee and never recanted it.. Acts 23:6B. W. wrote: Lastly, Gman, please note, that I said that you appear to be coming across as a Pharisee not that you were:
You are coming across that way to many of the readers here and you need to be aware of that. Avoid pride...
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But, ok, I can tone it down a bit too....