Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

[neo-x]

classicalteacher wrote:
Hi Alter....still using the same arguments to corrupt the Holy Scriptures in favor of your man-written watchtower bible, I see! Did you copy and paste from RO? LOL! Where ya gonna go next??

I take it that you two know each other?

ClassicalTeacher, any info you have about Alter2Ego could you please pm me? Occasionally we get people here that claim to be Christians, who are really only here to promote some unorthodox theology. 1stJohn0666 was our latest example. I don't think any of us have a problem discussing this stuff as long as people are genuinely seeking answers. Please pm me.

Thanks

ALTER2EGO -to- RICK D:
This will likely be my only communication with you, particularly in light of the tone of your above message and your announcement on the open forum to another person who objects to my trinity thread.

Below are the weblinks to two threads that I started at a political website, which I joined a couple weeks ago. That's where ClassicalTeacher and I ran into each other for the very first time.

At the website in question, not one, but three different Trinitarian moderators showed up in my "trinity" thread playing the roles of cheerleaders, while the regular Trinitarian members proceeded to sling mud at me with the blessings of the moderators over there. The fact that you showed up in my trinity thread, making comments to another regular member about me, when you don't know either one of us--but you will be using what that person says to decide if I am a Christian-- says one thing: the welcome mat here is about to be withdrawn where I am concerned.
http://www.republicanoperative.com/foru ... post596589
http://www.republicanoperative.com/foru ... post598102

Each of the weblinks above will take you to a post by me. Within each of my posts will be weblinks to specific comments by others about me and to me.


Let me know if you want me gone, and I will take my leave.

You really should not have posted those links. All I read there was good honest people giving you a wealth of answers and rebutation to your questions and you completely ignored most of them. So what are you expecting to get out of this forum?

I gave her a link and she declined to read it saying "I don't do links" but shes wants us to read her links, how absurd.

[Silvertusk]

Agreed.

[PaulSacramento]

1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire.

Google is your friend....

ALTER2EGO -to- PAUL SACRAMENTO:
I don't follow. I didn't ask anybody to tell me about Google. I asked for scriptures from God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, that is supposed to support the dogmas of a triune god and literal hellfire torment. I assume you can produce verses from the Bible, since apparently you believe in both dogmas? If so, please present your first four verses. After we have discussed the first four verses, you may then present another four verses.

2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human.

No, the Trinity is NOT like ANY "pagan" notion of 3 governing/supreme gods.

Actually, Christendom's trinity is simply another version of the pagan examples that I provided in my OP.

I will address the remainder of your post at another time.

No, it isn't and IF you did any research into it you would know that.

[PaulSacramento]

3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?

You are looking at two different subjects, first off and Jesus did indeed mention the fires of Ghenna, which is where the notion of "hellfire" developed from. It was "refined" based on the "Lake of Fire" from Revelations.

ALTER2EGO -to- PAUL SACRAMENTO:
I am aware that trinity and literal hellfire torment are two different subjects.

If you will, please quote the verses and identify Bible book, chapter, and verse where you are getting the above comments about Gehenna and the "Lake of Fire." In that way, others can easily follow along in their own Bibles. Be sure and explain why you believe the verses are with reference to literal hellfire torment. Can you do that?

I did quote them.
You should read posts better before you reply to them.

[PaulSacramento]

Paul: I just want you to know that she pulled the same nonsense at another forum to which I belong. And, the good, Christian members went to great lengths to respectfully counter her arguments with Scripture AND even one good man with Greek language support of the Trinity. She will ignore everything that you say and just come back with the same questions over and over again. She will not answer anyone else's questions and then accuse everyone of "mudslinging" and persecuting her for being a jw. It is an exercise in total frustration.

Ah, a JW.
Understood.
It should perhaps be noted that the Watchtower frowns on their members going to "apostate" websites.
Perhaps she is unaware of this...

[ClassicalTeacher]

classicalteacher wrote:
Hi Alter....still using the same arguments to corrupt the Holy Scriptures in favor of your man-written watchtower bible, I see! Did you copy and paste from RO? LOL! Where ya gonna go next??

I take it that you two know each other?

ClassicalTeacher, any info you have about Alter2Ego could you please pm me? Occasionally we get people here that claim to be Christians, who are really only here to promote some unorthodox theology. 1stJohn0666 was our latest example. I don't think any of us have a problem discussing this stuff as long as people are genuinely seeking answers. Please pm me.

Thanks

ALTER2EGO -to- RICK D:
This will likely be my only communication with you, particularly in light of the tone of your above message and your announcement on the open forum to another person who objects to my trinity thread.

Below are the weblinks to two threads that I started at a political website, which I joined a couple weeks ago. That's where ClassicalTeacher and I ran into each other for the very first time.

At the website in question, not one, but three different Trinitarian moderators showed up in my "trinity" thread playing the roles of cheerleaders, while the regular Trinitarian members proceeded to sling mud at me with the blessings of the moderators over there. The fact that you showed up in my trinity thread, making comments to another regular member about me, when you don't know either one of us--but you will be using what that person says to decide if I am a Christian-- says one thing: the welcome mat here is about to be withdrawn where I am concerned.
http://www.republicanoperative.com/foru ... post596589
http://www.republicanoperative.com/foru ... post598102

Each of the weblinks above will take you to a post by me. Within each of my posts will be weblinks to specific comments by others about me and to me.


Let me know if you want me gone, and I will take my leave.

See what I mean?? Typical. This is exactly what I said would happen....

[ClassicalTeacher]

classicalteacher wrote:
Hi Alter....still using the same arguments to corrupt the Holy Scriptures in favor of your man-written watchtower bible, I see! Did you copy and paste from RO? LOL! Where ya gonna go next??

I take it that you two know each other?

ClassicalTeacher, any info you have about Alter2Ego could you please pm me? Occasionally we get people here that claim to be Christians, who are really only here to promote some unorthodox theology. 1stJohn0666 was our latest example. I don't think any of us have a problem discussing this stuff as long as people are genuinely seeking answers. Please pm me.

Thanks

ALTER2EGO -to- RICK D:
This will likely be my only communication with you, particularly in light of the tone of your above message and your announcement on the open forum to another person who objects to my trinity thread.

Below are the weblinks to two threads that I started at a political website, which I joined a couple weeks ago. That's where ClassicalTeacher and I ran into each other for the very first time.

At the website in question, not one, but three different Trinitarian moderators showed up in my "trinity" thread playing the roles of cheerleaders, while the regular Trinitarian members proceeded to sling mud at me with the blessings of the moderators over there. The fact that you showed up in my trinity thread, making comments to another regular member about me, when you don't know either one of us--but you will be using what that person says to decide if I am a Christian-- says one thing: the welcome mat here is about to be withdrawn where I am concerned.
http://www.republicanoperative.com/foru ... post596589
http://www.republicanoperative.com/foru ... post598102

Each of the weblinks above will take you to a post by me. Within each of my posts will be weblinks to specific comments by others about me and to me.


Let me know if you want me gone, and I will take my leave.

You really should not have posted those links. All I read there was good honest people giving you a wealth of answers and rebutation to your questions and you completely ignored most of them. So what are you expecting to get out of this forum?

I gave her a link and she declined to read it saying "I don't do links" but shes wants us to read her links, how absurd.

This is typical. And, you are very correct in saying that the links showed good, honest, CHRISTIAN people providing her with all kinds of answers to her questions, but she didn't even have the decency to acknowledge them. Instead, she threw accusations at all of us--even the mods--calling them "trinitarian moderators" and accusing us of "mudslinging" and that we were persecuting her. There are really good people who sincerely wanted to help her to understand her errors regarding the Scriptures, and who had much more patience with her than I did. Expect more of this kind of attitude.... She may go off in a huff, as she did at RO...

[Alter2Ego]

I gave her a link and she declined to read it saying "I don't do links" but shes wants us to read her links, how absurd.

ALTER2EGO -to- NEO-X:
The post in which I included the weblinks was a direct response to the moderator, RickD. In case you did not notice, on Page 1 of this thread, RickD asked ClassicalTeacher, a Trinitarian Roman Catholic, to tell RickD why I may or may not be a Christian. So I provided RickD with links to conversations between me and others at another website where ClassicalTeacher and I met about two weeks ago--as opposed to RickD allowing the lame opinions of my opponent, ClassicalTeacher, to define whether or not I am a Christian.

BTW: Nobody asked you to click on the links. Furthermore, you can hardly compare my weblinks that are to direct conversations between me and others to the weblink you posted in my macroevolution myth thread. In that instance, you refused to quote the relevant portions of your third-party source; you did not bother to summarize your source; you did not bother to tell me which paragraph I should read when I clicked the weblink, etc. You merely posted the weblink as your idea of a rebuttal. Who do you think has that kind of time to waste?

[Alter2Ego]

Actually, Christendom's trinity is simply another version of the pagan examples that I provided in my OP.

I will address the remainder of your post at another time.

No, it isn't and IF you did any research into it you would know that.

ALTER2EGO -to- PAUL SACRAMENTO:
If you think "No, it isn't" will help your argument, go for it. It won't change a thing. The historical record, which I presented in my OP, shows that the idea of a 3-prong god came from pagan religions that did not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible. Keep the following in mind.

FACT #1: Trinities existed in paganism for centuries before Jesus Christ appeared on the earthly scene.

FACT #2: The Christianized Romans came from a long history of polytheism (worship of many false gods). It was therefore a simply matter for them to convert their pagan ideas into a "Christian" version of trinity. So while the pagan versions of trinity are of three separate gods, Christendom's version is of three separate "persons" combined into a single "Godhead."

BTW: I notice you have not presented any scriptures from the Bible to prove Christendom's version of trinity as being a Bible teaching.

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- PAUL SACRAMENTO:
I am aware that trinity and literal hellfire torment are two different subjects.

If you will, please quote the verses and identify Bible book, chapter, and verse where you are getting the above comments about Gehenna and the "Lake of Fire." In that way, others can easily follow along in their own Bibles. Be sure and explain why you believe the verses are with reference to literal hellfire torment. Can you do that?

I did quote them.
You should read posts better before you reply to them.

ALTER2EGO -to- PAUL SACRAMENTO:
You did not quote anything. Below is exactly what you said on page 1 of this thread in response to my OP.

Google is your friend....

No, the Trinity is NOT like ANY "pagan" notion of 3 governing/supreme gods.

None of those , NONE, are like the Trinity doctrine.

You are looking at two different subjects, first off and Jesus did indeed mention the fires of Ghenna, which is where the notion of "hellfire" developed from. It was "refined" based on the "Lake of Fire" from Revelations.

The trinity and hellfire were being taught long before there was a Roman Catholic Church.

First off, Jesus ( quoting Isaiah) was referring to Himself, not people that have turned away from God.

Actually, the places of "Sheol", "Hades" and "the grave" are ALSO know as "hell", not the other way around.

The bible teaches of an immortal spirit and makes it clear that the soul can die/be killed.

While some translate "deity" as Godhead ( KJV), you will not find those words literal terms in the bible.

As anyone can see, you merely told me what you believe is being said at Isaiah and Revelations, rather than you quoting the verses. Not only that, you failed to identify the chapter and verse where you are getting your ideas from.

[PaulSacramento]

First of, do you understand the difference between TriUNE and Three goods?
Second, it is quite clear that there are no explicit passages about the Trinity ( except perhaps the Baptismal creed in Matthew), that doesn't mean anything since many of the doctrines we have are based on trying to understand what is IMPLIED.
No where do you find the understanding of "God as multiple Gods" in Christianity ( except for maybe how the JW's wrongly translate John 1:1 as "a god".
The Trinity is a doctrine of God's nature.
Jesus is of the same nature as God:
John 1:1
Colossians:
15 [w]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For [x]by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Philipians:
5 Have this attitude [e]in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be [f]grasped, 7 but [g]emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death [h]on a cross.
to name just a few passages.

[PaulSacramento]

ALTER2EGO -to- PAUL SACRAMENTO:
I am aware that trinity and literal hellfire torment are two different subjects.

If you will, please quote the verses and identify Bible book, chapter, and verse where you are getting the above comments about Gehenna and the "Lake of Fire." In that way, others can easily follow along in their own Bibles. Be sure and explain why you believe the verses are with reference to literal hellfire torment. Can you do that?

I did quote them.
You should read posts better before you reply to them.

ALTER2EGO -to- PAUL SACRAMENTO:
You did not quote anything. Below is exactly what you said on page 1 of this thread in response to my OP.

Google is your friend....

No, the Trinity is NOT like ANY "pagan" notion of 3 governing/supreme gods.

None of those , NONE, are like the Trinity doctrine.

You are looking at two different subjects, first off and Jesus did indeed mention the fires of Ghenna, which is where the notion of "hellfire" developed from. It was "refined" based on the "Lake of Fire" from Revelations.

The trinity and hellfire were being taught long before there was a Roman Catholic Church.

First off, Jesus ( quoting Isaiah) was referring to Himself, not people that have turned away from God.

Actually, the places of "Sheol", "Hades" and "the grave" are ALSO know as "hell", not the other way around.

The bible teaches of an immortal spirit and makes it clear that the soul can die/be killed.

While some translate "deity" as Godhead ( KJV), you will not find those words literal terms in the bible.

As anyone can see, you merely told me what you believe is being said at Isaiah and Revelations, rather than you quoting the verses. Not only that, you failed to identify the chapter and verse where you are getting your ideas from.

Sorry, I am used to not having to "hold peoples hand" that much...
If you really need to know that, I think that maybe you need further study in the basics of Theology because, quite honestly, if you had a solid grasp I wouldn't need to do that for you.

[Alter2Ego]

As anyone can see, you merely told me what you believe is being said at Isaiah and Revelations, rather than you quoting the verses. Not only that, you failed to identify the chapter and verse where you are getting your ideas from.

Sorry, I am used to not having to "hold peoples hand" that much...
If you really need to know that, I think that maybe you need further study in the basics of Theology because, quite honestly, if you had a solid grasp I wouldn't need to do that for you.

ALTER2EGO -to- PAUL SACRAMENTO:
Somehow I knew you would not be able to produce Biblical proof of a 3-prong god and Christendom's version of Dante's fictional hell. A little birdie told me.

[PaulSacramento]

As anyone can see, you merely told me what you believe is being said at Isaiah and Revelations, rather than you quoting the verses. Not only that, you failed to identify the chapter and verse where you are getting your ideas from.

Sorry, I am used to not having to "hold peoples hand" that much...
If you really need to know that, I think that maybe you need further study in the basics of Theology because, quite honestly, if you had a solid grasp I wouldn't need to do that for you.

ALTER2EGO -to- PAUL SACRAMENTO:
Somehow I knew you would not be able to produce Biblical proof of a 3-prong god and Christendom's version of Dante's fictional hell. A little birdie told me.

Oivey.
Funny thing that YOU of all people would start a thread asking about Bible teachings or traditions of men.
You're a JW right? probably the denomination more "man oriented" than any other.
Quite possibly the most "selective passage" oriented denomination there is.

[PaulSacramento]

As for hellfire, the doctrine is from the passages about the lake of fire in revelation and about being consummed by fire in Ghenna.

EX:

Is hellfire preaching biblical? Clearly, Jesus taught on hell, and He did so to warn people not to go there. Hell is depicted in Scripture as a very nasty place from which there is no escape. The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10). Surely, a loving and compassionate Savior could not be so described if He failed to warn us about hell. But Jesus is certainly loving and compassionate, and He presented the joys and bliss of heaven and was clear about the only way to attain them. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life,” He said. “No one comes to the Father but through me” (John 14:6). The apostle Paul was equally blunt about the fate of those who rejected the gospel of salvation through Christ alone. They are condemned to “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9).

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/hellfire-pr ... z2W6ItWhio

Since it seems to have been "missed", LOL.