Evidence for God from Science

And we all know these discussions can get heated. Not making excuses, just saying it came from both sides.

Even if someone thinks something is a fact that is mere, unproven belief - and others don't and call them on it - what's the big deal? People can disagree, get riled up, argue, etc - but as long as the arguments don't become personal and full of ill will, to the point that a hostile, unhealthy atmosphere develops (which the mods should see to doesn't happen), I just can't see it coming to someone leaving - especially a board member. Everyone on here has their own hot-button issues. We all have had our views attacked, laughed at, distorted, etc - that kind of comes with the territory in an open debate forum. But just because any one person sees something as not being factual, you can't FORCE them to see it otherwise. And we shouldn't expect people to admit they are wrong when they sincerely believe they are not. They can either listen to your countering info, be persuaded or influenced by it - or not. But THEY shouldn't get too bent out of shape if you don't see as fact something that they do. It just takes a certain amount of thick skin to debate. And, brothers are gonna argue, but they should ALWAYS be committed to remaining brothers, even in deep disagreement. I just can't see it was necessary for Neo to leave. But he was obviously deeply hurt and offended.

This sad development is a cautionary tale for this forum, for its members to be ever-mindful that no one cares about what you say if they think you don't care about them to begin with. I think that may be what has happened here. Trust was lost.

As Christians, we should not get heated

1over137 wrote:As Christians, we should not get heated

Hana, we are MALE Christians! With sensitive egos. Some of our most passionate disagreements are with our brothers and best friends.

RickD wrote:

1over137 wrote:As Christians, we should not get heated

Hana, we are MALE Christians! With sensitive egos. Some of our most passionate disagreements are with our brothers and best friends.

that is not an excuse

1over137 wrote:

RickD wrote:

1over137 wrote:As Christians, we should not get heated

Hana, we are MALE Christians! With sensitive egos. Some of our most passionate disagreements are with our brothers and best friends.

that is not an excuse

I always use my "maleness" as an excuse.

My friends, I want you to know first off that I read your messages and I thank you for your love. I would like nothing more than to stay but before that…I want you guys to know that I didn't decide to leave because of mere disagreement. Nor has it anything to do with having a thicker skin as being suggested, nor I am I offended that you guys don't accept evolution in the same way I do.

I left because I felt that you are not comfortable in me having my view. It is one thing to disagree with what I say, it’s one thing to say evolution is not a fact, but it’s an entirely different thing to say that "Neo, we don't accept evolution as fact and now you have to do the same or else..."

I hope you realize this.

I didn't left because of differing views on creation. I left because I am not even entitled to my own opinion now. This is not about evolution or creation.

I don't respect a lot of beliefs, but I absolutely respect a person's right to hold them. I can disagree, debate or discuss but I won't force that person to agree with my conclusion because I happen to differ.

Rick, if you hold PC as the most convincing thing to your heart, would you like being forced to say that YEC is true and evolution is true as well, even when you don't agree with it? But you can disagree; respecting does not mean you have to agree with me. I find PC, YEC, false, should I then respect them by agreeing with them? But I should respect you brother. And if you find it true and convincing then we can discuss, debate and leave it where it is. I have absolutely no right to stop you to not express what you think is true or say something which must be in line with what I believe.

Second, when a mod does something which is wrong, who is to stop him? It is one thing to ask for proof; it is an entirely different thing to say "Your time is running out." these are Gman's words to me. And for the life of me I do not know what they mean...do any of you know? But I am not daft and I can see that the whole thing has taken as a personal battle form. Should a mod not be questioned for engaging in bully behavior? Am I a troll? If not then why am I being treated like one?

To top that, Gman, put the evolution thread into philosophy. I sincerely ask why? Is it not bias now working here? Who on earth puts evolution thread into philosophy? Unless he has a personal bias against the topic and even if he does what right does he have to move my thread when there is no reason to do it? Gman's reason is plain wrong, if there was a post by me on philosophy, he could have easily split the topic, but he didn't. And what really saddened me and actually worried me was that NO ONE STOPPED HIM. I am not passing blame on all mods, I can understand some might have been busy and some may have not checked but that’s my point a mod does not need to be monitored in the first place. And if there is something wrong going on than others should step in.

Gman calls evolution, a lie, a weak belief, but no one can see that his moving the thread is actually favoring his bias? He calls it philosophy so I should too now? And if I don't it really doesn't matter because it’s pushed under philosophy anyway and I can't do something about it. It’s such a low and trivial thing to do that I saw it pointless to continue. But it tells me that yes a mod can have his way around without consequences, so the only thing I could do was what I did, I decided to leave. Really there was no point in staying when this kind of behavior is going around.

Rick, Gman, any other person, if you started a thread on creation links or ID, and requested me to post only relevant links or don't post, I would absolutely honor you and your request. This has nothing to do with rules. It is simple common ethics and courtesy. We should not be fighting over things like these, and when we do, it means we do not love each other the same way we love ourselves. I was never reluctant to debate or discuss the topic of evolution; I never said I won’t give proof, I never asked anyone to accept evolution because I say so. But you made a point that whether I accept your posts against my request in that thread or not - you really don't care and you will post whether I like it or not. And it wasn't such a hard thing, a lot of people absolutely respected the purpose of the thread, they saw nothing wrong even if they disagreed.

Rick, I apologized to you earlier, and I do so again now, it was a very bad choice of words and my mistake when I talked about you taking science lessons from pastors, I am sorry I said that. I was wrong in your case, but a lot of people actually do that exactly and I have seen it plenty. I was under the wrong impression in your case and I hope you can see I didn't use those words again once I found that it wasn't so with you.

Third, it is very easy on this forum to be labeled anti-Semite. Really, anything against Israel is feared as anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism is when someone goes against Israel just because they are Jewish; it’s a form of racism. But apart from that Israel is not washed in milk and there are plenty of things they can do wrong.

FL's recent comments about me baffled me because I don't think I fit the description of an anti-Semite or that I am a fellow who “bad-mouths” Israel and Jews just for the sake of it. I was actually asked to provide an explanation. Now I don't mind that and I did give my reasons to post that video but a video showing rabbi's sucking penises in circumcision is at worst a shot against the practice but not because they are Jews. Heck, I understand why it’s vulgar but I don't understand how it’s anti-Semitism? They are engaged in a questionable act, Jews or not. I would have had equal objection if it was Christians or Muslims or Sikhs. What does that tell me? It means mods also have soft areas and they don't like it being questioned, the same way we do and I respect that, I totally do…but we should not be unfair, no matter how much we love a thing. There is a fine line between respecting something and sugar coating faults to the point where truth becomes hard to accept.

Fairness breeds trusts. I am sorry if I offended you guys. But I hope you can see I wasn't obstructing you in saying what you want to say; I wasn't demanding from you to call creationism a lie, false belief, I didn't lock your threads or moved them or deleted them, I did not ask you to profess in front of everyone that creationism is not a fact...if you think it is, who am I to force you into admitting it’s not?

There is no board purpose which demands that evolution must be called a belief or a Christian like me who does not hold Adam and eve factual, is going against board rules and purposes. So on what grounds was I asked to back down or for having an agenda? And on what grounds did Gman post this to me:

“Your time is running out?

I asked him for an explanation then and I would like an explanation now but Rick, you were there, you read it, why didn't you question it or stopped it? Does it not sound like an insult, an ultimatum to you? It sure sounded to me. It was like he was addressing a troll who just dropped out and was about to be kicked.

This issue is deeper than evolution vs. creation guys. In the past we lost members because some were Calvinists or Yec’s because of same attitudes. Now that I have stepped in those shoes, I can understand how they must have felt when we did not gave them the same grace we afford and now I have also reaped what I sowed in the past. We all have been guilty but I don't want this to happen again to any of us just because we differ on doctrines and ideas.

I would not want anyone to go unless its their choice. I don't want Jac and Jilay to go because they are YEC; or Hana to go because she leans towards Calvinism; or should this board ever turn YEC then Rick to go; or Gman to leave because he can't post his love for Israel. And I don't want Christians like me, or hughfray to leave this board because evolution as his point of view is a dangerous topic to favor on this board. I don't want an atheist or agnostic to leave this board when he sees us fighting like 6 year olds having no courtesy.

Debate and disagree is one thing, forcing people to bend in line is another.

I know a member on this forum, who I won't name but who cannot post here properly on a subject because a certain mod will take dislike and might boot him in his prejudice. This is troubling. I respect that poster and I cringe that this is what it has come to. This is unfair guys, this is against this board’s spirit and it’s against Christian spirit in which we claim to use this board. You may say I am stretching it but no, I think there is a real problem, deep down and we need to root it out before we lose more good people.

I respect your right to your opinion and I only asked for mine and I am sad that I had to fight for it. If you think I am wrong to say the above then I will respect your opinion and be gone for good. I hate fighting. But I hope you can see that some changes can be good for the board and some things needed to be corrected, and if my staying will make us stronger than before, then I will like nothing more but I don't want to stay so that we could just keep fighting and not change ourselves. I love you guys a lot and I want to think of you at your best.

And I didn't mean to patronize but I feel these things and I need to be honest and if you care for my opinion as you have shown me that you do (and I am grateful for it), then here it is.

Let me know what you think.

Christians argue and disagree about doctrines all the time, history and tradition have taught us that.
It is the height of arrogance to believe we are better than Augustine or Aquinas or Luther or Calvin, etc, etc..
What we must do better than them, if we can, is accept that we are fallible humans and that we do NOT KNOW for sure the answers to many of these questions.
We may will be wrong or right, only God knows for sure.
We don't have a full proof understanding of scripture, at best we have an adequate one as we look at the mirror/through the glass dimly.
Because of that we should try to be humble and treat what is different with understanding, even if we can't agree with it at this time.

Hana to go because she leans towards Calvinism

correction: i do not, i just keep searching and consider also that theology as i consider other

I think there is a real problem, deep down and we need to root it out before we lose more good people.

I quickly find this:

1 John 3:16-18
This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

1 Thessalonians 5:11
Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

Romans 12:13
Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality.

Acts 15:32
Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the brothers.

Hebrews 10:25
Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another-and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Leviticus 25:35
" 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you.

Romans 12:10
Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.

Ephesians 4:32
Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Romans 15:5
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus,

Ephesians 4:29
Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

Deuteronomy 15:10
Give generously to him and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to.

1 Timothy 6:18
Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.

1 Chronicles 29:13-14
Now, our God, we give you thanks, and praise your glorious name. "But who am I, and who are my people, that we should be able to give as generously as this? Everything comes from you, and we have given you only what comes from your hand.

Psalm 37:21
The wicked borrow and do not repay, but the righteous give generously;

Romans 15:7
Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.

Hebrews 6:10
God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.

Psalm 37:25-26
I was young and now I am old, yet I have never seen the righteous forsaken or their children begging bread. They are always generous and lend freely; their children will be blessed.

2 Corinthians 9:10-12
Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God. This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God's people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God

1 Peter 3:8
Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble.

Psalm 112:5
Good will come to him who is generous and lends freely, who conducts his affairs with justice.

Luke 6:38
Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Proverbs 22:9
A generous man will himself be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor.

Ephesians 4:2
Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.

Acts 10:1-2
At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.

Romans 12:8
if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

1 Thessalonians 4:18
Therefore encourage each other with these words.

Romans 12:16
Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.

2 Corinthians 9:6
Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously.

Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.

2 Corinthians 9:13
Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else.

Matthew 25:35-40
For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

1 John 4:7
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

Neo wrote:
Let me know what you think.

I will Neo. I'm at work now, and don't have access to anything but my phone. When I get home, I will go through each of your points and give you my perspective.

I'm glad you decided to talk about this Neo. I am confident we can work through this.

let's not be confident, let's pray about it

1over137 wrote:let's not be confident, let's pray about it

I'm still confident Hana. At least on my end, between Neo and me. We are both reasonable people, and once the misunderstandings that I see, are cleared up, we will get through this.

In response to neo's post, I'll only say I also thought it was stupid to see the evolution thread in the philosophy section.

Neo, I get your frustration. I hope you stick around. I took a rather long haitus from the board myself, though, so if you do decide you need some space, at least consider checking back in after some time.

Jac3510 wrote:In response to neo's post, I'll only say I also thought it was stupid to see the evolution thread in the philosophy section.

Neo, I get your frustration. I hope you stick around. I took a rather long haitus from the board myself, though, so if you do decide you need some space, at least consider checking back in after some time.

Ditto.

Why is no one addressing the 800 pound elephant in the room? Something needs to be done with Gman's tone and attitude. I suspect it could have been addressed internally between mods but from experience I rather doubt it.

Sorry G, you know I love you like a brother but for quite some time you've been not only unfair and partial as a moderator, but you down right come across as a bully. Don't misunderstand, although I may disagree with it I am not attacking your position, only that you are very dismissive of others' positions and you do it from the pulpit.

I thought this should be aired out.