Evidence for God from Science

Philip wrote:

ICE: So where did those kids of yours who died during pregnancy end up? Hell because of the original sin or? If you are going to say heaven because the kids are innocent, what is the use of baptism and removing the original sin, then?

Clearly, there is much that Ice doesn't understand. People end up in hell because they knowingly reject God - and for their OWN unforgiven sins - and NOT for the sins of Adam. Babies in the womb have not yet sinned. What babies and all of us inherit from Adam is a human sin NATURE - the inevitability that they will eventually begin to sin, as do all humans. Baptism removes NO sin.

Well, since I come from a majorly Catholic country, I was taught baptism does exactly that. So, I am asking...

Also, can you please quote me normally? Because I don't get a notification if you do this this way.

Kurieuo wrote:The trickier question is more who they are?

Part of our life here enables us to develop freely into the persons we are. Babies, they haven't had that chance. So then, does God provide them with another opportunity to develop themselves? If so, then it stands to reason they'll be judged according to whoever they become. Perhaps God just accepts them as undeveloped humans and doesn't give them such an opportunity however.

According to whoever they become? This comes from God knowing all possible outcomes of an individual? And will judge according to that? But, that didn't happen... Isn't that kinda weird or unjust?

Kurieuo wrote: Think about when we die, do you think who are or have become in life isn't simply dismissed? We might be different in certain respects, but you'll still be you and I'll still be "me". So then, it is reasonable to assume that a baby will still be their unmaturated "baby self."

Now if you can find Scripture which tells us of such a situation hereafter, then please present it to me. I think you'll find the only clear scenario described within Scripture applies to those who have matured enough to make a decision one way or another. Everything else people say, "oh they go immediately to hell" or "get a free ticket to heaven" is just talking from ignorance really.

As an aside, I had to double-take on your post IceMobster. I like you and all, and know you probably didn't mean to rub in salt, but the smart undertones I'm picking up on I find quite distasteful. If I had a baby die, and you tried being smart about such to try drive whatever point you thought was valid, I wouldn't be so rational in my response as above. You'd see my face snap away from a smile, I'd be so peeved my hands would probably wrap around your neck. Because, we just do not know, that not knowing would, your words are a low blow into a very painful spot. Wrong time and place to try make your point, perhaps I misread your words, but I find a bit of arsiness behind them.

Nah, I didn't mean to be smart or insult anyone.
It's just... I don't see a reason for the baby to die so early. (Physical evil is a b1tch.) And when they are so immature, where do they end up? And if in heaven, how does that look like? Do they stay as a baby, not developing the mind and thoughts as the adults do? Or do they grow up?

I really hope that Ices' post was just lostin translation...

If not, Ice, that was a heartbreaking post. I lost four babies.
PLEASE THINK.

Nah, I didn't mean to be smart or insult anyone.
It's just... I don't see a reason for the baby to die so early. (Physical evil is a b1tch.) And when they are so immature, where do they end up? And if in heaven, how does that look like? Do they stay as a baby, not developing the mind and thoughts as the adults do? Or do they grow up?

Ice, I realize you have questions. But that was terribly insensitive.

While we don't know the particulars of infants in heaven, make no mistake, the moment a baby or any human is removed from the dangers, terrors and suffering they would otherwise encounter in THIS world, and in the very next moment they are with the Lord - what a miraculous and glorious thing, whatever the terrible circumstances of their death. Of course, though very painful for those who have lost their child. But for the Christian, one day in Heaven, perhaps thousands of years from now, they'll likely be joyfully engaging in fellowship with that child, both the child's death, their own death, and ALL death will be but a distant memory overshadowed by that joyous future time. No, I don't know the specifics, but I have no reason to believe that the child doesn't become an adult in Heaven - if not immediately. Perhaps they grow up to adulthood there? MAYBE those Christians who have lost their children when very young will get to see them grow up in Heaven (once they are there with them)? Again, we don't know the specifics, but we do know the specifics of God's Holy, just, merciful and loving character. And we know he calls people to what He enables them to do, and NOT what they are incapable of doing (which includes children of less than mature understandings).

IceMobster wrote:So where did those kids of yours who died during pregnancy end up? Hell because of the original sin or? If you are going to say heaven because the kids are innocent, what is the use of baptism and removing the original sin, then?

IMO, Biblically speaking, when a person dies ( no matter the stage of development) their spirit returns to God and awaits the bodily resurrection.
The resurrection is when those that do not believe in Christ will be judged based on their works ( believers are saved from judgment).
How does this affect newborns? or unborn?
I would say that God makes that decision.
The sin we all inherit from Adam is mortality and the price of that sin is paid at death.

IceMobster wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:The trickier question is more who they are?

Part of our life here enables us to develop freely into the persons we are. Babies, they haven't had that chance. So then, does God provide them with another opportunity to develop themselves? If so, then it stands to reason they'll be judged according to whoever they become. Perhaps God just accepts them as undeveloped humans and doesn't give them such an opportunity however.

According to whoever they become? This comes from God knowing all possible outcomes of an individual? And will judge according to that? But, that didn't happen... Isn't that kinda weird or unjust?

You're still focusing on some argument and now missing what I actually said (which isn't what you said here).

IceMobster wrote:Nah, I didn't mean to be smart or insult anyone.
It's just... I don't see a reason for the baby to die so early. (Physical evil is a b1tch.) And when they are so immature, where do they end up? And if in heaven, how does that look like? Do they stay as a baby, not developing the mind and thoughts as the adults do? Or do they grow up?

Not smart, but if you don't see the inappropriate nature...

Nessa wrote:

1over137 wrote:I hope i will be blessed with kid/kids

I am praying for you today

Thank you for that, Nessa.
Am mind of late. Seeing it only now.

*hands rickd the tissues for his allergies*

THIS IS HOW LONG I'VE LOVED YOU: A LETTER FROM PATRICK O'MALLEY TO HIS DAUGHTER LOLA

107,048,700 seconds.
1,784,145 minutes.
29,735 hours.
1,238 days.
177 weeks.
88 fortnights.
40 months.
3 years.

This is how long I have loved you.

You were born a baby. Deep, I know. But its important.
If I had known how much I would grow to love you I would have tried to capture the moment of your birth eloquently. It was long, we were tired and you did not want to come out. I remember being so terrified, and I can remember the rubber like quality of the umbilical chord as medical grade scissors bounced off the chord with my shaking hands.
If only I had known how much I would love you.
I went home and was in a whirlwind of emotion but the gravity of this life changing event hadn't sunk in.
If only I had known then how much you would make my heart grow.
I slept, I woke up, visited and repeated this until you came home.
Then you were home I didn't know what to do. Some parents instantly fall in love and others take some time for that flame to alight. Is that an awful thing to say? Or is it so expected that we feel an instant connection with our children, that society puts us in a position of feeling like an inadequate person?

If only I had know what would make my heart explode. Make tears well in my eyes, make my throat contract as I swallow this bulging lump.
I was afraid to have a girl, I didn't know what to do with girls. Was I going to be a good parent? My male role model hadn't been a positive addition in my life, can I be positive influence in hers? A million thoughts, feelings and emotions clouding my vision. Subtracting away from this miracle.
You were ever present.
Then the worrying started. Before 'Love'. Fear.
Are you eating right, are you well, are you sleeping right, why is your skin that colour, what's a snot sucker, how much pamol should we give you, when did you last have pamol, do you have a fever, are you teething, why are you vomiting, when will you stop vomiting, ouch that looks sore, how much cream, how much nappy free time, how much formula, how many poos is too many, wasn't she just sick?
Sleepless nights listening to you cough, gasp, sneeze, forever worrying that you would not wake up. A cry!! At last!! At least I know you are alive.
If only I had known that you would call me Daddy and tell me you love me.
I look back now and think of all the fond memories. The countless funny faces, and tireless expressions. The continuous tongue poking you acquired. Your first smile. Your first giggle. When I changed you and you would kick me in my stomach and think it was the funniest thing in the world. Watching you kick with blatant disregard for personal and feline safety. Squealing with delight when you saw me.
When your face lights up.......

If only I had known that the most glorious moments of my life are when that light shines on me.
All of this happens so fast. One minute you are lying down, the next you are sitting up, then crawling, then walking, then.......words.
Soft, silly sounds formed together into magical, meaningful, memorable, single syllables.
"Da"

If only I could comprehend the power that one syllable would have. How it would mould to me and in turn re-purpose me for something greater.
If only I had known that hearing my name called out when you ran towards me arms wide open, would cleanse my soul after a tense or stressful day.
I hear the bang, the house reverberates the sound of a double bass drum and the scream tears me from my sleep. A sense of dread washes over me. We run to your room and I see you lying on the floor face down and bright red through the screaming. I'm in shock, the single most terrifying experience of my limited parenting career. How was I to know this was only the beginning. "Don't just stand there. pick her up!" I rush to you. You vomit, the panic grows, you scream, the panic grows, you don't stop doing one of those two things, the panic grows.
One very tense car ride 15 mins later we are at the A&E. You go from screaming and projectiles to smiles and tactile play on the floor of the doctors examination room. Are you fine now?

30 mins later you are fine now, or at least this is what the doctor told us and doctors know everything. Why for the first time in my life am I doubting a doctor. 30 years experience of living equates to 30 years of being a medical practitioner right?
Sigh of relief.
You were alright.
If only I had known that you would one day ask me "Are you alright Daddy?" with such concern I forget who is supposed to be worried for who.
Words. Gosh. Words.
I remember when all of the words you knew would fit on to a single piece of paper a quarter the size of an A4 and we would add them as you learnt them. What ever happened to that piece of paper?
Pride. I recall prior to a Plunket appointment writing down every word you knew and being so surprised that you knew that many. When Plunket told us you were developing excellently and they were impressed with your vocabulary I beamed from ear to ear.
If only I had known you were melting through my outer shell and exposing my heart.
Hundreds of words, hundreds of sentences.

"Is that funny Daddy?".
"I'm not ever talking ever again".
"You say no and I say yes".
"Not like that Daddy".
"I love you Daddy".
"Will you play with me Daddy".
"Daddy!! I need help!!!".
"Whats that called Daddy?" Followed by "No! That's a clipsybrutle".
And "You're so silly Daddy!!!".
Gosh I love being silly.
If only I had known that you would keep me up with words, that I couldn't sleep until I wrote this. That I cried while writing this.
Where did my baby go?
Where did you find this power you have over me?
When did you make me so sentimental?
When did my heart belong on my sleeve?
When did our souls touch and cause mine to stir?
The scariest thing about this is you blink and it is gone, one moment moves onto the next.
Phases come and go, and once a phase passes you can never get it back.
Boy I wish I could freeze you in this phase. I wish I could clearly capture every phase. Soon these moments will be memories and a few pictures in an album.

When did I fall in love with you? From the moment I first met you. I just didn't know it yet.
107,048,700 seconds.
1,784,145 minutes.
29,735 hours.
1,238 days.
177 weeks.
88 fortnights.
40 months.
3 years.
This is how long I have loved you.

SOURCE: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... abies.html

PaulSacramento wrote:

IceMobster wrote:So where did those kids of yours who died during pregnancy end up? Hell because of the original sin or? If you are going to say heaven because the kids are innocent, what is the use of baptism and removing the original sin, then?

IMO, Biblically speaking, when a person dies ( no matter the stage of development) their spirit returns to God and awaits the bodily resurrection.
The resurrection is when those that do not believe in Christ will be judged based on their works ( believers are saved from judgment).
How does this affect newborns? or unborn?
I would say that God makes that decision.
The sin we all inherit from Adam is mortality and the price of that sin is paid at death.

which might occur at age 12 or 14, in God's eyes, if not in ours. "Let the dead bury the dead." Your physical death is likely completely irrelevant where God is concerned. Now note how completely your religion is focused on that moment; so that, for most "believers," life does not even begin until then?

You really have no clue about Christianity, do you?