Evidence for God from Science

I've been holding back on posting these, waiting for the third part to be posted:

John MacArthur's Distracting Extremism Regarding Charismatic Mov't at Strange Fire Event (Pt. 1)
By Wallace Henley
ChristianPost.com
October 21, 2013|5:43 am

Somewhere between the extremes of form and frenzy regarding the Holy Spirit and His manifestation in our times is truth essential to the church and execution of its mission.

Sadly, John MacArthur's Strange Fire conference and perhaps his forthcoming book (I say "perhaps" because I've not read it) seem to take such an extremist position that they potentially distract from the discovery and use of that essential truth in a season when the church needs it urgently.

MacArthur's passion for rightly dividing the word of truth is commendable. A huge number of readers – including Pentecostals and charismatics – have been aided by MacArthur's careful studies of biblical passages, and inspired by his passion for sound doctrine.

This makes his sweeping condemnations of charismatics even sadder.
...
Martyn Lloyd-Jones, a biblical scholar of MacArthur's rank, captured it well. There is a danger, he said, of going beyond the Bible. But, there is also peril from the other extreme of "being satisfied with something very much less than what is offered in Scripture."

On the one hand, "people come to the New Testament and… interpret it in the light of their own experience." That produces what I refer to as "frenzy". But, says Lloyd-Jones (who like John MacArthur aligned with the Reformed wing of evangelicalism), there are others "so afraid of enthusiasm" and "fanaticism, that in order to avoid those they go right over to the other side without facing what is offered in the New Testament. They take what they have and what they are as the norm." That "norm" hardens into unyielding "form".

John MacArthur Burning the Bridges Between Cessationists, Continuationists and Traditionalists and Charismatics (Pt. 2)
By Wallace Henley
ChristianPost.com
October 24, 2013

John MacArthur and his Strange Fire conference bring to mind the bombing runs by World War 2 flyers on bridges their enemies might have used strategically.

The river-spans had to come down.

MacArthur seems equally passionate about no bridges between cessationists and continuationists, traditionalists and charismatics. After all, in his view – based largely, apparently, on the extremes of the charismatic movement – "nothing good has come out of the charismatic movement that is attributable to charismatic theology."

This is take-no-prisoners, leave-no-bridges talk.

John MacArthur and Finding the Balance Between Form and Frenzy by Focusing on Jesus (Pt. 3 - Final)
By Wallace Henley
ChristianPost.com
October 29, 2013|8:17 am

John MacArthur-style cessationism is like telling Johnny Football (Johnny Manziel, Texas A&M's dazzling quarterback) he can only execute running plays because the passing game ended with Knute Rockne and football's golden age.

But frenzy-style charismania orders Mr. Football to throw with abandon on every play, ignoring rules, boundaries, the health of his throwing arm, and the game plan. Pass even if it means an interception by a constantly scrambling opponent like, say, Simon the Sorcerer. (Acts

Somewhere between the wary and the reckless, Form and Frenzy, there is solid truth on which to run the game of life and ministry.
...
To find balance between Form and Frenzy, Jesus' contemporary followers must not focus on the post-apostolic church, but go all the way back to Jesus Christ and His Kingdom.

Balance is found, first, in the Person of Jesus Christ. "The Christ" means He is the anointed One of God, who has the Spirit "without measure". (John 3:34) Yet Jesus also honors the Scripture, citing what we call the Old Testament, and acknowledging its divine inspiration. He has come to fulfill the Law and the Prophets, not replace them. To honor Christ, then, is to honor the Word of God, and not ignore it.

Second, balance is found in the ministry of Jesus. If the church is the body of Christ, it ought to do what Jesus did in His body. If He said in Matthew 28:18-20 that the apostolic-era church is to go into all the world and make disciples, and teach those new followers of Jesus to observe everything He commanded the original disciples to do, with what generation does that end? Where is the biblical countermand that invalidates that command for future generations?

I appreciate this writer's focus on balance - both extremes on this issue get to their "there" by leaving out part of what Christianity should be.

Rather than associate anyone or any other thread with MacArthur's Strange Fire conference - the reason why I would not do so will likely become rather clear - I'm posting this in an older thread that is specifically about that conference. What follows are excerpts from what I believe was the final session of the conference. I've linked the transcript so anyone interested can read as much or little of it as they care to.

Strange Fire – A Call to Respond – John MacArthur
by Mike Riccardi (Transciber)
10/18/13

There are others who criticized by saying, “You’re attacking brothers.” I wish I could affirm that. We’ve said this one way or another this week: this (i.e. the charismatic movement) is a movement made up largely of non-Christians.

As can be seen by checking the transcript, this is a self-contained paragraph. The context does not change the clear meaning of these words. Personally, I'm reluctant to say with certainty that a person is not a Christian believer, unless I have heard them say (directly or indirectly) that they are not. John MacArthur is saying that the majority of several hundred million Pentecostals and charismatics definitely are not Christians. That statement is absurd. That statement is outrageous. That statement is unworthy of a minister of the Gospel (and of any Christian believer.

But you have to understand, this other stream of evangelicalism goes back to about 1966, when the hippies came out of San Francisco, joined Calvary Chapel, and we had the launch of an informal, barefoot, beach, drug-induced kind of young people that told the church how we should act. Hymns went out. Suits went out. For the first time in the history of the church, the conduct of the church was conformed in a subculture that was formed on LSD in San Francisco and migrated to Southern California.

That launches the self-focused church that winds up in the seeker-friendly church, that splinters in the Vineyard movement, which develops into the charismatic stream. I don’t go back to Lonnie Frisbee, who led the Jesus movement and died of AIDS as a homosexual. That’s not my stream. But that’s the stream that has produced the culturally-bound, seeker-driven church movement. And while there are good and bad and better and worse elements of it, that’s where it comes from. We are very different.

Wow! So charismatics are a bunch of dope-smoking, bad-tripping druggies! Oh, and homosexuals, too! Ten or hundreds of millions of us! Well, guess what?! Those freaks went to Calvary Chapel and Christian coffee houses and all manner of churches - not just Pentecostal and charismatic - where Christians opened the doors of their churches - literally and spiritually - rather that slamming the doors and shutting them out. And because of the power of the Gospel they preached and walked, Jesus saved those freaks - they came to be called Jesus Freaks - saved them from their old lifestyles, cleaned them from the inside out! Pastors like Chuck Smith and Jack Hayford - practically neighbors to John MacArthur, BTW - cared more for those freaks' souls than the carpets of their churches or whether the freaks wore suits and ties. My vocabulary is not sufficient to express my astonishment and disgust at MacArthur's arrogance in this guilt-by-association slander of his brothers and sisters in Christ and fellow ministers of the gospel!

Ichabod

From a Q & A session at the conference:

JM: People who have any connection to Judaism and Christianity have a connection to philanthropy. It is a striking anomaly, however, that there is essentially zero social benefit to the world from the charismatic movement. Where’s the charismatic hospital? Social services? Poverty relief? This is a scam. This is lying to people who are poor at the potential. What have they done? Where are those? This is all about me. This isn’t about sacrifice. So when you say, “good,” Todd, what are you talking about? Personal charities and acts of kindness? But as a movement in itself it hasn’t demonstrated even what the Roman Catholic Church has.

As the initials suggest, the person making this claim is john MacArthur himself. I'm going to give MacArthur credit to the extent that he is not lying. He really believed what he claimed. So I will settle for saying that this statement embodies almost incredible ignorance.

Just off the top of my head ... MacArthur's really never heard of Youth With A Mission, founded by former Assemblies of God pastor Loren Cunningham? And the medical mission founded by YWAM, Mercy Ships? Closer to my home, a charismatic church in Campbell, CA, the Home Church has a food bank that serves needy people in the community. Closer to MacArthur's home, New Christ Memorial Church of God in Christ of Pacoima, CA also has numerous charitable outreaches to their community. Such church ministries are far from unique among Pentecostals and charismatics ... for that matter, MacArthur's church might even do some, too ... maybe. MacArthur must have to work rather hard to remain ignorant of the many ministries he says don't exist!

EDIT: ! Two words: Teen Challenge !

PeteSinCA wrote:From a Q & A session at the conference:

JM: People who have any connection to Judaism and Christianity have a connection to philanthropy. It is a striking anomaly, however, that there is essentially zero social benefit to the world from the charismatic movement. Where’s the charismatic hospital? Social services? Poverty relief? This is a scam. This is lying to people who are poor at the potential. What have they done? Where are those? This is all about me. This isn’t about sacrifice. So when you say, “good,” Todd, what are you talking about? Personal charities and acts of kindness? But as a movement in itself it hasn’t demonstrated even what the Roman Catholic Church has.

As the initials suggest, the person making this claim is john MacArthur himself. I'm going to give MacArthur credit to the extent that he is not lying. He really believed what he claimed. So I will settle for saying that this statement embodies almost incredible ignorance.

Just off the top of my head ... MacArthur's really never heard of Youth With A Mission, founded by former Assemblies of God pastor Loren Cunningham? And the medical mission founded by YWAM, Mercy Ships? Closer to my home, a charismatic church in Campbell, CA, the Home Church has a food bank that serves needy people in the community. Closer to MacArthur's home, New Christ Memorial Church of God in Christ of Pacoima, CA also has numerous charitable outreaches to their community. Such church ministries are far from unique among Pentecostals and charismatics ... for that matter, MacArthur's church might even do some, too ... maybe. MacArthur must have to work rather hard to remain ignorant of the many ministries he says don't exist!

EDIT: ! Two words: Teen Challenge !

Add in the countless programs offered to help those in need in such churches. Even myself, developing charity drives for Native American folks and all who are involved with me in this endeavor. Well, he will answer to the Lord on this. Right now, I'll forgive him and be on my way singing in the Spirit all the way!
-
-
-

Gotcha, B. W.! Strangely - this isn't a new debate to me - delving a bit into MacArthur's ... ummmmm ... teaching has been quite a shock to me. Historically, disagreement over this has ranged from moderately warm, friendly, discussions over coffee and tea to vehement and lurid proclamations that the "others" were demon-possessed or spiritually dead. I think the dynamiting of a Pentecostal meeting place (a century ago?) was a unique event. But I thought that, over the past two or three decades the extremes of denouncing the "others" as demon-possessed (or spiritually dead) had been relegated to the remote and obscure margins of this debate. I guess I've been hanging out with the "wrong sort" of Evangelicals these past 3 1/2 decades - non-Pentecostal, non-charismatic Evangelicals who had no desire to "cast me out" - and have been lulled into a sort of blindness to the fact that these extremes (the Cessationists' end of the extremes still being around, I pretty much have to assume the corresponding spiritual pride and arrogance from some Pentecostals and/or charismatics must still be more common than I've thought) still afflict the mainstream.

Vicious @#$% like what MacArthur, et al, were spewing makes me want to and !!! Christians - teachers and pastors, especially - should know better!

We should not be saying, "'I am of Luther,' and 'I am of Calvin,' and 'I am Baptist,' and 'I am Fundamentalist,' and 'I am of Pentecost.' Has the Body of Christ been divided? Calvin (Luther, Wesley, Chuck Smith, John MacArthur, etc.!) was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Pentecost (or Independent Fundamental Baptist)?" 1 Corinthians 1:12-13, PeteS' Very Non-Standard Version.

Vicious @#$% like what MacArthur, et al, were spewing makes me want to and !!! Christians - teachers and pastors, especially - should know better!

St. Pete,

I'm shocked and chagrined that you resort to this kind of behavior!

Where's the mop and bucket? I suppose I should clean up the cookies I tossed.

`
/Big Grin .. Even though I am a rather reserved traditional Reformed Presbyterian
[I even read the Westminster Confession sometimes for my devotions ../grin]
nevertheless I know that:

Even if MacArthur held 2 "Strange Fire" Conferences per week perpetually, the Pentecostals/Charismatics are nonetheless growing
like wildfire in the Global South, that is, South America, Central America, Africa ... even parts of Asia. I discovered this when I came
across an article by Charles Colson titled "How Christianity is Growing Around the World" which in turn led me to buy and read
The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity by Philip Jenkins.

Here is an excerpt from Colson's article:

"How Christianity is Growing Around the World"
by Charles Colson
CBN.com -- In his book The Clash of Civilizations, Samuel Huntington predicts that demographics will decide the clash between Christianity and Islam. And, as he puts it, "in the long run, Muhammad wins out." In this instance, Huntington is wrong. For the foreseeable future there will be many more Christians than Muslims in the world.

As Penn State professor Philip Jenkins writes in The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity, predictions like Huntington's betray an ignorance of the explosive growth of Christianity outside of the West.

For instance, in 1900, there were approximately 10 million Christians in Africa. By 2000, there were 360 million. By 2025, conservative estimates see that number rising to 633 million. Those same estimates put the number of Christians in Latin America in 2025 at 640 million and in Asia at 460 million.

According to Jenkins ... By the middle of this century, there will be three billion Christians in the world -- one and a half times the number of Muslims. In fact, by 2050 there will be nearly as many Pentecostal Christians in the world as there are Muslims today.

http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/BibleS ... 20722.aspx

One major thesis of Phillip Jenkins' The Next Christendom: The Coming Of Global Christianity, is that the VAST MAJORITY of Christendom in the coming 21st century is going to be Pentecostal-Charismatics in faith and practice. Sorry John M. but that's what the evidence is saying. I note that even when the mainstream Protestant denominations, like the Methodists and Lutherans, plant churches in the Global South, that these churches immediately take on a Pentecostal-Charismatic tone, accent, and flavor ~~ call it what you will, but their faith and practice is NOT patterned after their "mother denomination" that planted the local church in the Global South. Even the newly planted Roman Catholic churches take on the Pentecostal-Charismatic tones and leanings. Christendom's churches in the Global South are NOT taking an intellectual approach to the interpretation and application of the Bible, instead they are taking a decidedly more emotional approach, one based upon their feelings and their perceived physical and emotional needs.

♫

PS
Actually I bought three books by Philips Jenkins, all related to the future explosive growth of 21st century Christendom.

(1) The Next Christendom: The Coming Of Global Christianity
(2) The News Faces Of Christianity: Believing The Bible In The Global South
(3) God's Continent: Christianity, Islam, and Europe's Religious Crisis

For any interested, I would recommend The Next Christendom: The Coming Of Global Christianity as the best starting point.
This book is packed with interesting insights. For example Jenkins discusses a projected "United States with 100 million Latinos
[as] very likely to have a far more Southern religious complexion than anything else we can imagine at present" pg. 264
[By "Southern religious complexion" Jenkins means more Pentecostal-Charismatic."]

`
In case anyone is wondering who Philip Jenkins is:

"Philip Jenkins (born April 3, 1952[1]) is in 2013 the Distinguished Professor of History at Baylor University and Co-Director for Baylor's Program on Historical Studies of Religion in the Institute for Studies of Religion.[2] He is also the Edwin Erle Sparks Professor of Humanities Emeritus at Pennsylvania State University (PSU). He was Professor (from 1993) and a Distinguished Professor (from 1997) of History and Religious studies at the same institution; and also assistant, associate and then full professor of Criminal Justice and American Studies at PSU, 1980–93.[3]

Jenkins is a contributing editor for The American Conservative and writes a monthly column for The Christian Century. He has also written articles for Christianity Today, First Things, and The Atlantic.[4]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Jenkins