Evidence for God from Science

B. W. wrote:

oldman wrote:

RickD wrote:

oldman wrote:

RickD wrote:oldman,

I was joking about the brain cells.

And no, it's not a good thing that you smoked pot. Although God does use evil for His purposes too.

Are you then implying that it was an evil thing that I should experience the mind expanding qualities of cannabis that led me to be as I am now?

Mind expanding?
Mind altering is more like it.

Let me rephrase what I wrote, are you then implying that it was an evil thing that I should experience the mind altering qualities of cannabis that led me to be as I am now?

No but rather God can use all things for his own purposes...to lead people to repent from ruin and learn to live His new ways.

Drugs cannot produce this, living a new way, only God's grace at work purifying a soul can.

No one should substitute cannabis for God's correcting power - the bible makes it clear to be sober minded and avoid seducing spirits for our best good. It is good that you no longer use that substance and blessings too you
-
-
-

...and blessings to you too friend, but I ought to clear up a misconception here. What I actually told you earlier was that “I don't smoke it any more”, but I do occasionally eat it in small quantities.


I did make it clear in my opening post “cannabis can be extremely dangerous”. I said this because I know by experience that when a man abuses cannabis he very easily becomes subject to Satan. Even so, my experience also tells me that using the drug in reasonable moderation as I have described can be very beneficial to certain people.

I don't believe cannabis led me to God but I do believe God ultimately led me to cannabis in order that I could see Him and reveal Him more clearly.

Byblos,

I agree that choosing to do evil isn't a "thing". That is however not what I said. There is technical clarity in what I said. God allowing us to free choose to do evil is necessarily true for a host of philosophical reasons. Now, you may not believe the same set because you believe the philosophical teachings of whatever your catholic church endorses. Thats all fine and dandy. It isn't the same thing I am talking about.

Rick,

I think the clarification is necessary. Saying "God uses evil" necessarily connects God to evil. Its not possible. Putting human free will out of the explaination is rather detrimental to the understanding of what evil is. Thats all really and I hope we start clarifying this cause its becoming a problem with people.

oldman wrote:
I don't believe cannabis led me to God but I do believe God ultimately led me to cannabis in order that I could see Him and reveal Him more clearly.

God would not use cannabis so that you can "see him" and "reveal him more clearly". Sorry, but you are very clearly mistaken on that aspect. God does not need you to view distortions of reality or alter your mind with the abuse of a substance. What you are doing is making God necessarily a deciever if he needs you to do that so that you can "see him" and "reveal him more clearly". In that case, we do not believe in the same God. You actually are worshipping a god of Deception. Can anyone guess who that is?

domokunrox wrote:Byblos,

oldman wrote:
I don't believe cannabis led me to God but I do believe God ultimately led me to cannabis in order that I could see Him and reveal Him more clearly.

God would not use cannabis so that you can "see him" and "reveal him more clearly". Sorry, but you are very clearly mistaken on that aspect. God does not need you to view distortions of reality or alter your mind with the abuse of a substance. What you are doing is making God necessarily a deciever if he needs you to do that so that you can "see him" and "reveal him more clearly". In that case, we do not believe in the same God. You actually are worshipping a god of Deception. Can anyone guess who that is?

So presumably then you believe that whilst under the influence of cannabis Satan led me to write and believe this...


In Mark 12:28-31 it is written, And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
[As far as I can see, from an atheistic point of view, the nearest equivalent to that commandment would go something like this, “always love and value that which produced you: the human race, above your self and above all things at all costs”]
The second is this:‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Simple logical deductions showed me and continue to show me that only by valuing these two commandments above all other opposing commands, doctrines, forces and influences that would have us place an inferior value to ourselves on others, shall we ever find no reason to deceive and offend anyone. Simple logical deductions also show me that only by truly valuing the man who first gave us these greatest of all commandments, above all other men and gods, shall I seriously value His commandments above all other opposing commands, doctrines, forces and influences also; and only by living always by His two greatest commandments shall I find no reason to deceive and offend anyone including myself.


Only the faithful Spirit that is faithful to love unto death, will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us, such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, the only true and faithful Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth simply because NO ONE can even begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust.
All who have faith in this Spirit will have faith in the Son. All who are of God have faith in this Spirit. Whoever will not have faith in this Spirit will remain a liar.

I used to be a drug addict and I know first hand what harm it can do to people but I can also say the same for alcohol, it is not only the addicts it affects, it effects everyone around them also.

I have given up all these things to keep my body pure for the Lord, I still however drink non-alcoholic beer because I still like the taste.

I am not judging you for your use of cannabis but I would recommend extreme caution that you don't succumb to it or cause a stumbling block to another.

I am not sure why you require it to get the insights you do or to see/feel God, I don't believe I need anything other than Christ.

Dan

oldman wrote:...I did make it clear in my opening post “cannabis can be extremely dangerous”. I said this because I know by experience that when a man abuses cannabis he very easily becomes subject to Satan. Even so, my experience also tells me that using the drug in reasonable moderation as I have described can be very beneficial to certain people.

I don't believe cannabis led me to God but I do believe God ultimately led me to cannabis in order that I could see Him and reveal Him more clearly.

God can use anything to draw a person to him. The question becomes, drawn to what?

Ephesians 2:8, 9 NASB - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

What does verse 9 say - "not as a result of works, so that no one may boast..."

Are you not boasting in the work of partaking cannabis to encounter God? God leads a person to himself - not to something else else to find him. Have you considered that biblical principle?

What God desires is that we come to him just as we are - no works involved - to encounter him. He will not lead us to some work we must do to encounter him. We are to trust in him alone for enlightenment and insight - not legalism, not cannabis - but solely upon his grace. That is where he desires you to go from here. It sounds like to me that you are placing your faith in cannabis to encounter God and not God's grace alone. Is that true?

In fact Jesus said this...

"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30 "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." Mat 11:28, 28, 29 NASB

Whom does he say to come too - cannabis first then to him? -- NO -- read it again. Him alone so that you find the rest you desire that no cannabis can fill, no legalism can bring.

I know many addicts who through their use of alcohol /drugs encountered God. So, yes, in a sense, God can use anything to awaken a person to his/her need for him alone. In doing so, he requires for us to give up these things in order to actually move further and deeper into the things of God. If not, reliance (faith) is in the work to find God and not on him alone. Do you desire to go further with God?

We are called to carry our own cross (Luke 14:27). I think it was A. W. Tozer who said - "a man who carries a cross knows he will not return..."

We are called to carry our cross. A person who carries a cross knows he will not be returning...

Bitterness, envy, strife, contentions, a jealousy that robs a person’s spirit and shackle them to fears – what are you chained too?

You will not return to… Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, that kills and deadens the soul. What is deadening your soul?

If you carry your cross – you will not return to...Idolatry, sorceries, dissension, heresies that destroy the body. Cannabis is a type of idol and didn't you know that what a person focus' on the most reveals the idol hidden deep within the heart that lead to ruination within the body. Have you looked in a mirror lately?

A Man who carrying a cross knows he will not return…

To slandering gossip, character assassination, murdering in heart, living by unforgiveness that robs from the spirit those touched by it...So, readers, what have these done to you and why so committed to keep spreading these around?

A Man carrying a cross knows he will not be returning...

To unrighteous behavior, living in avoidance of the correction word of God brings, living as a thief seeking what one can gain from another’s sorrow, popularity, wealth … that makes the soul all people hard and dead to conscience

A Person bearing a cross knows he shan't be returning to these old ways... or the old ways they thought best to find God or garner blessings...

We are called to carry our own cross if we desire to progress further with him and be his disciples that gives all honor to Him alone and not cannabis... not in Idols, sorcery, addictions, theft, bitterness, living without constraints, revenge, envy, wounded hearts, manipulations, etc and etc...

So are you giving more honor to justify cannabis than Jesus Christ at work in you?

Yes, there is a medical purpose that cannabis can be used for such as cancer treatment. Helps regain the appetite and decrease nausea. Pain med's are fine when used as intended to decrease pain. But when these take over a person, the role of medicine stops and destruction begins. If one uses cannabis, mushrooms, mescaline as a Shaman would, to reach the divine, that falls under the class of works that can't save. It also leads to deception and the guilt of leading others into the same deception. A lying spirit, yes, will come as a seducer. They may even use the bible and grant great insights into it, why, to eventually lead one into ruin and bring others into the same ruin. Have you considered this?

The Lord may have used whatever to bring you to him, and then he led you here, to decide now, to carry your cross and actually follow him...
-
-
-

oldman wrote:So presumably then you believe that whilst under the influence of cannabis Satan led me to write and believe this...

If you believe that the consumption of cannabis was put before you by God so that you can "see him" and "reveal him more clearly", then yes.

The God that I believe in (who is perfect in every single way) would not require you to consume a plant in order for him to draw you near. If you believe your god needs you to consume such a plant in order to "see him" and "reveal him more clearly", then that NECESSARILY makes your god a deceiver.

Again, we clearly can see that we do not believe in the same God. This is proven in the relation of ideas. Look up and see what sub forum you are in. Philosophical discussions

You are welcome in posting a wall of biblical text (which is a non-sequitur, by the way) to attempt to justify your position, but I already got the philosophical position down. You are welcome to a rebuttal on that.

B.W. up here in the previous post looks like he has your cornered on the biblical aspects

domokunrox wrote:
If you believe your god needs you to consume such a plant in order to "see him" and "reveal him more clearly", then that NECESSARILY makes your god a deceiver.

No it doesn't NECESSARILY make his god a deceiver. He could mistakenly believe something about God. That would just make him wrong. It doesn't NECESSARILY mean he has a false god who is a deceiver.

I'm surprised that an "expert" philosopher like yourself would make a simple mistake like that.

RickD wrote:

domokunrox wrote:
If you believe your god needs you to consume such a plant in order to "see him" and "reveal him more clearly", then that NECESSARILY makes your god a deceiver.

No it doesn't NECESSARILY make his god a deceiver. He could mistakenly believe something about God. That would just make him wrong. It doesn't NECESSARILY mean he has a false god who is a deceiver.

I'm surprised that an "expert" philosopher like yourself would make a simple mistake like that.

But then again he may be Catholic and doesn't even know it, in which case he can't help but believe what his church teaches him.

Byblos wrote:
But then again he may be Catholic and doesn't even know it, in which case he can't help but believe what his church teaches him.

Oldman may be Catholic? Cannabis may have killed a few brain cells, but I don't think oldman has completely lost his mind.

Thank you for the warnings, I do appreciate your concern.

I wrote this through the inspiration that came to me under the influence of cannabis, now let me ask you all this, was this the work of God or of Satan?


“In Mark 12:28-31 it is written, And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
[As far as I can see, from an atheistic point of view, the nearest equivalent to that commandment would go something like this, “always love and value that which produced you: the human race, above your self and above all things at all costs”]
The second is this:‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Simple logical deductions showed me and continue to show me that only by valuing these two commandments above all other opposing commands, doctrines, forces and influences that would have us place an inferior value to ourselves on others, shall we ever find no reason to deceive and offend anyone. Simple logical deductions also show me that only by truly valuing the man who first gave us these greatest of all commandments, above all other men and gods, shall I seriously value His commandments above all other opposing commands, doctrines, forces and influences also; and only by living always by His two greatest commandments shall I find no reason to deceive and offend anyone including myself.


Only the faithful Spirit that is faithful to love unto death, will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us, such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, the only true and faithful Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth simply because NO ONE can even begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust.
All who have faith in this Spirit will have faith in the Son. All who are of God have faith in this Spirit. Whoever will not have faith in this Spirit will remain a liar.”



As I said, I appreciate your concern but if you really care to win me over to total abstinence from cannabis then you must give clear answers to my questions otherwise I cannot take you seriously.

RickD wrote:

domokunrox wrote:
If you believe your god needs you to consume such a plant in order to "see him" and "reveal him more clearly", then that NECESSARILY makes your god a deceiver.

No it doesn't NECESSARILY make his god a deceiver. He could mistakenly believe something about God. That would just make him wrong. It doesn't NECESSARILY mean he has a false god who is a deceiver.

I'm surprised that an "expert" philosopher like yourself would make a simple mistake like that.

Rick, it absolutely does make such a god a deceiver. Of course he is in fact mistaken, where do you think he got such an absurd idea? Please enlighten me as to where he got it. The origin of that idea, Rick.

A god that supposedly is the cause of the universe and is perfect in every single way, yet cannot reveal himself so that you can "see him" until you consume a substance does NECESSARILY make him a deciever. Illusions and sophistry are tools for the purposes of deception. A god in which must use "tricks" to keep himself hidden is a deceiver. Period.

Thank you for the warnings, I do appreciate your concern.

I wrote this through the inspiration that came to me under the influence of cannabis, now let me ask you all this, was this the work of God or of Satan?

As I said, I appreciate your concern but if you really care to win me over to total abstinence from cannabis then you must give clear answers to my questions otherwise I cannot take you seriously.

The Bible verses are the work of God.

The exegesis of those verses to justify the consumption of cannabis however is a non sequitur and is of the anti christ.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic)


1 John 4:1-6 NASB
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. [2] By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; [3] and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. [4] You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. [5] They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. [6] We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

domokunrox wrote:

Thank you for the warnings, I do appreciate your concern.

I wrote this through the inspiration that came to me under the influence of cannabis, now let me ask you all this, was this the work of God or of Satan?

As I said, I appreciate your concern but if you really care to win me over to total abstinence from cannabis then you must give clear answers to my questions otherwise I cannot take you seriously.

The Bible verses are the work of God.

The exegesis of those verses to justify the consumption of cannabis however is a non sequitur and is of the anti christ.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic)


1 John 4:1-6 NASB
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. [2] By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; [3] and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. [4] You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. [5] They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. [6] We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

So you clearly believe this exegesis is of the antichrist, in which case you must believe it is a work of evil. That is interesting indeed.

In Mark 12:28-31 it is written, And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
[As far as I can see, from an atheistic point of view, the nearest equivalent to that commandment would go something like this, “always love and value that which produced you: the human race, above your self and above all things at all costs”]
The second is this:‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Simple logical deductions showed me and continue to show me that only by valuing these two commandments above all other opposing commands, doctrines, forces and influences that would have us place an inferior value to ourselves on others, shall we ever find no reason to deceive and offend anyone. Simple logical deductions also show me that only by truly valuing the man who first gave us these greatest of all commandments, above all other men and gods, shall I seriously value His commandments above all other opposing commands, doctrines, forces and influences also; and only by living always by His two greatest commandments shall I find no reason to deceive and offend anyone including myself.


Only the faithful Spirit that is faithful to love unto death, will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us, such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, the only true and faithful Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth simply because NO ONE can even begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust.
All who have faith in this Spirit will have faith in the Son. All who are of God have faith in this Spirit. Whoever will not have faith in this Spirit will remain a liar.




Is there anyone here besides domokunrox who believes this is a work of the devil?





.

oldman wrote:So you clearly believe this exegesis is of the antichrist, in which case you must believe it is a work of evil. That is interesting indeed.
Is there anyone here besides domokunrox who believes this is a work of the devil?

I'm not sure if you have not figured this out yet, but you haven't brought anything philosophically valid to the table. I'm going to quote you here.

Cannabis can and often does cause short term memory loss, anxiety, fatigue, loss of concentration, delusions, paranoia and much worse besides

and

the values that were indoctrinated into us from childhood which cause us to react as we do to certain situations and problems, no longer have the same hold over us, this in itself can be dangerous but it can also be a very good thing

and

Being under the influence of cannabis as I have just described, allows me to think and reason more deeply, vividly and freely, without the dominating views and prejudices of others who throughout history have largely controlled what men should think and perceive is the truth

I'm pointing this out to you because you seem to not understand that just about everything I underlined is a contradiction and as for the last line you actually are begging the question.
Also, you need to recognize that you're being completely disingenuous when you completely ignore that fact that you've made a non sequitur. You don't seem to care that you did. Why would anyone care what you have to say if you refuse to be rational? I'm not sure why you even bothered if your only goal was to propagate your view without any willingness to change your view if you are wrong.

Let me go ahead and ask you something. What kind of proof are you looking for that would change your mind? Thats a good place to start. If nothing will change your mind then there is no discussion to be had here.

-


Much of this came to me whilst under the influence of cannabis, who else says it is a work of evil?


The Son of God came from His Father before anything was made. From the Father and the Son came their perfect and eternal love for each other. Their love is their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. The Son came from the Father and He naturally looks up to His Father, but without the Father's only eternal child there would be no possibility for an eternal God known as "love", "God is love", as Scripture clearly proclaims, and this love cannot exist with one person alone. This love, this God called love, needs at least two free thinking reasoning minds. Through the eternal Son the Father became the eternal giver of joy in perfect caring and sharing, and through the eternal Father His Son became the eternal receiver and giver of this same Spirit. Without the eternal Son there would be no such Spirit of pure and perfect eternal love; and it is this eternal Spirit that comes through the Father and the Son, and with the Father and the Son, all creation is governed. This Spirit naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. It is this Spirit who will live and rule in all who will value Him above all others. Father Son and Holy Spirit are dependent upon each other for being what they are. All three are of equal value.

"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come". Matthew 12:31-32





.